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Welcome back to Bills and Business. The show where we explore the intersection of policy and tech. I'm your host, Laura Davis, co-founder of the USLege. And today we're joined by Gavin Nicholson. He's the founder and CEO of the Tax Cap Policy Institute, a Nonpartisan think tank designing and advocating for private sector guided public interest policies. Their goal is to channel private capital into long term prosperity for all Texans through infrastructure, equitable tax structures, responsible governance all rooted in transparency, innovation and impact.

And our conversation today will explore his time inside the legislature, how bipartisanship can still work, and why private capital is such a critical part of building policy success.

I think it's great that you're, you're starting the same thing and that you have done it in such a you want to be bipartisan, right? And how how do you approach that?

How do you see that? Do you get any pushback having worked for, you know, Democrats in the state? What's that journey kind of been like?

No, I mean, it it's it's something that I have to it's like an ongoing battle, you know, battle, quote unquote. But I think the thing is, is that most people, when they talk to me at first they don't understand that I'm a Democrat.

They make assumptions based off of me. I think it's because the art of just having conversations lost. And most people try to insert politics in everything. But,

you know, when I was looking at what I wanted to do, I wanted to I sort of looked at the areas I knew was really important, but, like, not sexy.

Like no one ever does the policy on. And I wanted to get a board that sort of represented the best of those worlds in a bipartisan fashion. So we're like, we're split 5050, 50% Democrats, 50% Republicans. And we actually, in our bylaws, have a rule that says we have to have for every Republican, there has to be a Democrat like, you can't be can't be separated.

And so my board chairs, he's like, he's a moderate Republican. And have another board members are Republican. And I got two Democrats. But I think, like for me, it was really frustrating. And I'm sure you you've had this experience too. Working for Senator Paxton was like, there was really good policy that just got Partizan for no reason.

And what was supposed to be a slam dunk? Everyone agrees all of a sudden is now split 5050 record call, vote. You know, for no reason whatsoever. And so

it is sad when it does happen because I found the DC, I was so excited that state policy would be far more nonpartisan, right? Like both sides would talk about things because it's turf fights versus big headline issues like education funding is a nonpartisan issue, right?

You would think. Right, right. And so those types of things, I mean, we definitely, you know, from the outside, but when I, you know, looking in, people probably would say, oh, this was a really Republican policy or and it was like, actually this was 100% nonpartisan, and agreed upon in both chambers. Literally nobody opposed it. So that's kind of I think that that's like not looked at as well.

Yeah. Especially because of campaigns. Yeah. Right. You want to go to your audience and when you're campaigning they want to say, oh, I was the most Republican or the most Democratic. And really

it's a lot of you have to work together. And I don't know how healthy that, that even that system is in itself. Because then at that point you're not competing for the betterment of your constituents.

You're competing for who can get the most policy wins. And if that's all you're competing for,

there's no need to pass good policy because it's a it's a sort of like what happened when Nancy Pelosi passed the ACA. It's just passed now. We'll figure it out later. Which is awful way to do anything in politics. But, I mean, I'm with you, and it was so frustrating, I think sometimes because on the staff level, you know, you have your friends that are on both sides.

Yeah. And I'd have to have conversations with them where I'm like, hey, are you guys voting this way? This way. What are you recommending? And they'd be like, oh, you know, we're recommending against or we're recommending for because XYZ a reason. But it always boiled down to we always check if there's an R.D. next to the name.

That's the first thing. And like that's such a backwards way to do things. But I feel like that's becoming more and more prevalent as the legislature is getting more Partizan for sure. Actually got a real example of that. In the 88th legislative session, there was a bill that my boss had worked on. It was actually closing.

It was funny enough. It square like a full circle moment is closing a loophole that was accidentally created off a bill that I passed in the 87th legislature. And, simple bill, just, school resource officers got written out of the occupation or not occupation with the government code to get search warrants. Totally accidental. It was just the way a bill was written, kind of, you know, carve them out.

So the bill just fixed it. It just said, hey, you know, if you are a campus police officer, you can request a search warrant. My boss, a Democrat, filed the bill, and another member Republican filed the bill. Exact same bill, exact same language, line by line. When it went to the House floor, he went up there, gave like a ten, 15 second spiel about it, passed 100 and like 38 to 0.

No issue. My boss went up there the same day. By the way, why Boston up there, same bill, same everything. Not only did we have to delay the bill, we had to get multiple Republicans to speak in favor of the bill. I had to print out 151 pages, distribute them across the House floor, and even then it only passed like 78 to like 60.

And it was like at some point, like I get Partizanship has to, you know, come into play for certain core issues, but it's things like that. It's like, wow, that's crazy. So exact side by side, it will I be pointed out to a lot of the office, I'll just call them up. And I was like, hey, is your boss voting for or against this?

And the ones that were like, oh, we're voting against it. I'd like you realize you guys just voted for this exact same bill,

exact same language, not even ten minutes ago. And when I pointed that out to them, they're like, oh, we didn't realize. And I'm like, you're not doing your job.

Wow. I know that's the thing. That's just impossible to keep up with it.

So while that makes sense to many bills wait there's way too many bills. And then I do think that that's actually a negative with I like people are going to make way more bills. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's so much easier to adopt a bill. There's a couple states that actually limit the amount of bills you can do.

Oh I know that. There's great. We talked about that in our annual report. We did I think there's about 5 or 6 states. They limit the amount of bills you can do.

And if you're doing like, well, they'll do like a big tax bill, for instance. And that holds every single tax change in the state legislature.

So rather than, you know, how we do things where it's like 120 different, you know, tax bills and, you know, they get dragged out a long time. Other states, they just do one go. You tack on like 50 amendments and it's just tax day and that's it.

Do you know which states off top of your head

I think so I think Tennessee does something similar to this.

I don't think they limit it. Limited artificial like that. I think Colorado does it. California has a version of it. It's not that extreme. But they do have some limits. And then I know Nevada has limits as well. So it's definitely implemented across couple states. I hope the legislature considers it. That's really cool.

I know there's a lot of things you could potentially do, but who knows what will happen with all these.

Yeah. Specials. Right. I, I'm interested in talking to your grandmother about Nevada politics

because I just hear it's madness. It's crazy. It's you showing me some of the, during her primary, she sent me some of the, the science that people were, like, holding up, and they, like, had her, like, in a photoshopped, like, clown outfit that was like rhinos at the clown show or something like that.

And I'm like, this woman has voted for Republicans since, like, the 80s. Like, ever since she's been involved in politics. She's only ever worked for Republicans who voted for Republicans. And all of a sudden she's not a Republican. Makes no sense of infighting right on both sides. And it is, I don't think. I don't know how you fix that either.

I think online, like social media rhetoric, has a lot to do with it. People just pick up things and, you know, it's the Dunning-Kruger effect. They think they're experts in it. It just creates more problems. I think some people now sometimes,

and people not knowing how to have an open conversation about issues, is something I say all the time is nobody agrees 100% on anything or and so but nobody knows.

Now, I think probably the lockdown really didn't help because people weren't around each other. Yeah, the social media online rhetoric got really bad and people just started talking there more. And yeah, I definitely see that being just a huge problem. No one wants to talk politics anymore. So, well, I love what you are doing. Thank you. Well, yeah, making it more nonpartizan and talking about issues that that shouldn't have a Partizan line.

So tell me a little more about your personal journey. So, you were chief of staff in the house for three sessions? But how did you get into politics? How did it all set for you?

So I was the annoying kid in government class that was super involved and active that I think people got sick of. Honestly.

But I knew when to shut up, so I was like. I wasn't just, like, arguing to argue. But I was, sort of active in 2015 during those, you know, the presidential primaries and, 2016, I volunteered for my first campaign. And then not a lot of people know this, but, in 2017, I was super frustrated with just in with how the political landscape shaped out.

And I decided to run for city council. And I was like 19 years old, like just starting community college. And I'll never forget, I don't think I've shared this part with anyone, but it's so funny. I went to City Hall and I go, I want to run for city council. And the city secretary, like, looks down at me like glass is like drooping.

And she goes, okay, do you know what district you're in? And I was like, now I just know I want to run. Thankfully, the district, I decided to run and we had a retiring incumbent, so it wasn't like I was going to run against an incumbent. Well, that's. But it was a five person race, and I was the only candidate for like 29 out of the 30 days, like filing days.

And I was like, am I just going to get this? Like, it would have been crazy. But now the last day, all four other people filed. And, you know, I figured that's how it went. But that was sort of my start and then immediately started working on a lot of campaigns and,

did that for a couple years and was real quick.

Yeah, you win that race. So who who beat you? I knew a guy, a guy named Scott Elliott. Super nice guy. I mean, definitely deserved the seat. I definitely would have been a better option than me. But he actually won. And then he won again reelection. And now he's retired. But I got in a five person race.

I try to figure out what win I could take away from it. So the win that I got was I spent the least money per capita, per vote. I only got 4%. But, you know, hey, having the balls to do it is the most important thing. It was scary. It was. I had no idea what I was doing.

I all I did was show up to forums to that I didn't block, I didn't make phone calls into anything like that. I just put up road signs and went to forums. That was it.

And so I was like, you know, it's not that bad if I that's all I did, you know, that's super scary.

And I, I still think, though, that if I didn't do that, I would not have gotten as far as I did in politics, because that forces you to sort of justify your beliefs. It forces you to be confronted with a lot of uncomfortable conversations, of people going like, why are you leaving this? And, you know, it's you're like a young kid.

You're like, no, why do I believe in this? Yeah. And so I think that help those strengthen a lot of, you know, my personal beliefs. But then in 2020, I got the opportunity to work for rep Carl Sherman, who he represents, southern Dallas County, for Mayor De Soto. They gave me a remote internship, and I was sort of in this position of, you know, do I take it, you know, do I not?

So I had to take it. I was like, what's the worst that can happen? Worst that could happen was going to Storm Uri because that uplifted everything. And, all of a sudden, the session that was supposed to be focused on, you know, this the crisis of Covid then became Covid plus winter Storm Uri, you know, plus all the civil unrest in the country at the time.

And so that was, I think, a hell of a session to get introduced to,

and then when I left his office, I was sort of also on the side doing a lot of tech startup stuff and, elaborate on that. What were you doing? I so I was working on a company called Opolis and Opolis, you know, like the Greek word for city.

And the idea was, is that, because of the emerging tech space, a lot of people were contract developers, and, you know, they were just taking on projects and things like that. Well, they didn't really get good health care benefits, corporate benefits and things like that. So what we did is we basically served as an, an H.R.

Commons where they could be members of our Commons. They would get health insurance group rate benefits for the same rate that you would at a large corporation without sacrificing your autonomy. And it had a co-op model. They're still around. They're doing great. But they were actually the parent company of Ethereum, Denver, which is the largest Ethereum conference in North America.

And so we actually got the creator of Ethereum out of there, like their teams and stuff. Kimbal Musk was actually there. Jared Polis is all in Denver. We got Andrew Yang. I mean, it was all the all the tech guys, you know, so did that. And then I got an offer from, Ben Jones to join his team in June or July of 2023.

I want to say something like that. So, you know, from there was with, Rob Jones, and we decided to leave this legislative session. So very cool. Quite, quite the journey that was. No, I mean, that sets you up and having the real world experience and tech and politics is, I think, can be really helpful for you. I think the thing that I learned, and I've taken away from a lot of the tech stuff, is the ability to be flexible, that I think sometimes in politics is not the most prominent, you know, the ability to being able to say, I can get up and just do something until it's done.

I think sometimes in politics where there's not really that initiative, sometimes unless you really have to do something. But in AI, at least in my experience, the tech world is like, just get it done, you know? Because then I have more free time to do whatever the hell I want, you know? But it definitely I'll have a lot

in government.

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I think it does get a bad rap for having, you know, people doing 9 to 5ft politics. I would say, are you people do not sleep in that role. That's the difference. The politics in the government. I feel like the agency people you know, nothing bad about agencies, but that's okay, I love agencies. But yeah, I feel like they do have the 9 to 5 for the most part when they're not in the legislative season, but then the legislative season, that's when it's more of the you got to be on a call.

But, you know, at least for me, when I was the chief, it was like a 24 over seven. You're always on, you know, it was I remember actually, I was out drinking with friends one time in Dallas. It's like ten, 11:00 at night. We represented the district where Fair Park is. So the state fair is going on.

I'm. You know, I'm now drinking with friends, having a good time. All of a sudden, I get a news alert shooting at Fair Park,

and I'm. You were there. You were. I was I was running around the corner. But, you know, I'm like, immediately thinking I have to do a press release now because that's our district. So I'm trying to I tell my friends I'll be right back.

And they didn't they didn't get it. You know, they're like, dude, it's like Saturday, you know, why are you out working right now? I'm like, guys don't get it, don't have time to explain.

And so I'm literally in this park bathroom typing up a press release and sending it back and forth to my boss, making sure it makes sense because, you know, you can't not respond to it.

So you have to either. My mindset was, you either you can do it in the moment or you have to say you can't do it. But not doing something was never an option. Yep. You just couldn't not do it for sure. So

I think it's a really good experience to become an entrepreneur as well in in that space, because you're always going to have something to do.

And I get there's a lot of people who don't get it. Yeah. The work stuff and I mean my personal life has totally changed since starting my company. I can't do as much anymore.

It's the, the thing on Twitter that's trend right now. It's the 996 mindset which is you work 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. six days a week.

Which it's not healthy, but it's the I guess there's a study or something done that showed that, like all the new tech startup guys and all the tech startup founders and, you know, the developers and stuff, that's how they're living right now. And Silicon Valley is not at 9 p.m., six days a week. It's seven days.

So, yeah, I know I, I do that. My girl gets mad at me sometimes. She's like, it's the weekend, stop working. Yes, I'm like, I gotta work though. I just have that bug. I got that itch. I don't think my ADHD helps though, that, that that definitely causes me to fixate on stuff sometimes. The

quote so we just we had our A team offsite.

So everyone a company came in is really, really fun. And Ben what our CTO and co-founder he did kind of presentation and in it he had some funny memes and some fun quotes and oh, this one was, Mark Cuban, Mark Cuban work as if there's someone working 24 seven. Take it all away from you. Yeah. And that's what we do.

And honestly, everyone we hire has to be like that, too. Yeah. And I think obviously no one's ever going to work as hard as the founder. I personally get that, like, we're not going to expect everyone to work seven days a week, but you have to have that hustle. Because, I mean, long term, like at some point, what I'm excited about with some people in our company now, like, coach wants to start his own thing.

Yeah. And he's going to do that, you know, after long after we get acquired, whatever happens. But wouldn't that be cool if we can then go and invest in his right? And then he's learned so much in the startup world.

And I think that's so important passing the torch. And I think that's like something of like unites generation is the ability to pass the torch.

Because I think, yeah, you know, not not to disrespect our elders. You know, I think there is the, the people that started taking power in the 80s, in the 90s that had to work so hard just to get like that little bit of where they're at that it's sometimes it's hard for them to let go and pass the torch and define mentorship in the same way that they were given mentorship.

You know, I see some of the stuff on LinkedIn sometimes where it's like some guy that's clearly never, you know, he has not been in an entry level or like started started from scratch in a long time. And the advice I'm given or I seem given is like, that's not where LinkedIn thought leadership. It's so fun. So one of the funniest one with the I don't know if you ever saw there's one guy that was like, I have this idea with my friends, we're all going to get together and we're going to start a podcast, except it'll be different.

There's no microphones, no cameras, and we'll talk about topics and like the topic on it was, dude, you just invented hanging out. Like that's like, but he was so serious about it too. And it's so funny. I see this all the time. I love it so much. Are you doing LinkedIn thought leadership? Yeah, I, I want to I hate it, but I did it I did it one.

I did this my last post because that's how the algorithm catches it. And yeah I'm going to go with it. Awesome.

You know who's really good at it is really, really good at it. And here at Austin's Adam Lowy Adam. So Adam Lowy is probably one of the, biggest personal injury attorneys in Austin. Oh yes, I do know.

So he'll he'll do those thought leadership posts about cases he worked on. And it's the like one sentence line break, one sentence line break. And every single time I see it, I'm like, I've already seen this case. And then I'll read this one sentence and I'm like, okay, this is a different case. I got to read the rest of the thing now, and every single time it's like hundreds of likes.

And I'm like, clearly the algorithm is catching these somehow, some way. So I, I got to do it, but I, I hate it,

Any who did that, how did you go from being, you know, as to, in politics entrenched as a chief to starting about creating a think tank. I mean, this must have been brewing for a while for you. What it, what it was mean it was and I think I knew and my boss and I both knew that, you know, this year was probably the year that I was not going to be with his office.

Next session, I

it's if you haven't worked in the building, it is a grueling experience. And I think sometimes even for like the lobby that have never worked inside the building, it is so exhausting to be staff all the time. And so I knew what I wanted. I kind of do what I want to do.

I kind of knew that I didn't want to do, and I, I was looking at the lobby and I was like, you know, I could do this. I know how to not be partizan and how to push issues, but you don't really get to decide. It's sort of like, you know, your client and things like that.

So that didn't look, as appealing. But I did approach a couple people about it. Looked at some agency stuff. But, you know, the, the like with most thing, most things in government, salaries usually aren't the most competitive. And so, you know, I sort of looking at that sort of ruled some of that out. And really how the think tank started, because I was already I already had a lot of crazy ideas that I wanted to push through his bills.

But my boss, we had a rule where it had to be relevant to the district to file something. So we didn't really, didn't get a lot of those ideas, but, I, I knew talking with staff and even some members that there were some issues, that there was clearly an interest, but, they couldn't devote a whole bunch of time to it because it wasn't the a pressing issue.

And, you know, I'll never forget actually had one rep, tell me that whenever any tech bill comes up, you know, they don't even ask their staff to do a recommendation, because I'll just ask them another member on the floor, how they're voting for it, and that a lot of those things kept replaying in my mind as I was looking and figuring out what I wanted to do next.

And when I, you know, I went out drinking with two of my board members before they were my board members, and we were talking and one of them just sort of frustratingly said, I think it was he was talking about Carolyn fairly spill, and he didn't understand why I was being held up. He was like, this is a good bill.

Cell phone ban in schools, which I love. I think it's a great bill. And I had to explain to him, you know, look, sometimes these bills get caught up in Partizan politics in a way that makes absolutely no sense to an outside observer. And he was like, well, we have access to the capital. Why can't we change that capital, meaning the money?

Why can't we just hire some people to go change that? And I was like, well, it's not that simple. You know, because that requires thought leadership, that requires the ability to create research, create, you know, do all these things that it's not really being done in a nonpartizan way for these more forward looking issues. They're already some think tanks that approach things from either, you know, the conservative side of things, the progressive left wing side of things, you know, and they, nonpartisan ones usually focus on education, health care, energy, things like that.

So, you know, tech isn't really tech taxes and infrastructure things we were talking about. Not really the focus a lot of time. And he goes, well, you worked in there. Why can't you do it? And I was like, oh, that's a good question. Why can't I do it? And I think from there we start playing with the idea a bit.

And I was looking around at tools and I was like, you know, I don't have the power of a lobby shop. You know, like some of these people have eight associates. And, you know, for partners that I've been work in and they get their spreadsheets on track and everything. And, I was looking actually, that's how I discovered y'all is I was like, okay, well, there's this AI tool that, like, I actually know how to use er responsibly, which is not just copy and paste everything it sends me there.

Oh, my God, I got stories about. Oh, yeah. But I looked at that and I was like, this is exactly what I need. And so, you know, immediately reached out, got a free trial just to see if I liked it. And I was like, this is 100% what I need because it's better than the search engine.

The, Texas Legislature Online has because, I mean, you know, you you search a keyword and it gives you like 800 bills that all match that keyword. And it's all in numerical order. Maybe it's relevant, maybe it's not. Or they have their, matching strength index, which it's like you could put in like taxes or something like that.

And I'll say, well, this bill says taxes nine times, so that means it's 100% relevant. It's like yes or no, which is like what I like with y'all. It's I can say this specific taxation, you know, policy, you know, pull up all the bills with a bunch of different,

you know, results and contextual search. Exactly. It's really big.

That's super big. So, knowing I had all of those, you know, I had the backing of at least two people,

and I had this tool at my fingertips. I was like, there's no reason I can't do this. I have the ability to do it. I have the knowledge to do it. I know enough people will do it.

And I've had a lot of people, and I guess this sort of the frustrating thing sometimes a lot of people have been like, Gavin, this is so needed. We're so glad that you're doing it. And I be great. You know, I want to get you to support, you know, we're we're set up to be, you know, 501 C3 status pending have to say that, nonprofit think tank.

You know, we'd love to get you to join us. And they go, oh, you know, I don't know if I want to do that. You know, I just I want you to be around. And I think that's sort of the taboo in the room, you know, is if you if no one supports the research to do it, it never gets done.

And you're going to be just as frustrated next session.

So sorry. I'm. Yeah. No, this is so interesting. And thank you. I'm so happy to hear that. That was really helpful. When you're starting if I that's amazing. If I didn't have you guys this tool, I probably would not have started the think tank. And I'd be so serious.

It made sense for I liked how easy it was. And the two things was the bill searching and also the, going through committees and being able to search for keywords, because that was so critical because I remember, you know, in my annual report, I have little quotes from senators and, and members and, I had one from what was bugging me is the quote from, Comptroller Hagar.

And it was in appropriations and the House appropriations. Me this is like in February or something. And I remember him saying something about the budget, but I cannot remember it for the life of me I could not remember at the day. And, you know, the old days, you would have to go through search. Every little thing took hours, hours, and even then it was like, you may have found the part where he's at people.

And I got to go through this whole thing, which, you know the question for an hour. I have two hours and I just slap. So yummy. It's so easy. That's so great. But you came.

So, when you were going through that, you had two board members. What? What field were they? And they were in tech or

so.

The first one is actually a venture capitalist. And he's my board chair. He does a lot of dual use tech, so, you know, defense stuff, but also civilian application. There's a lot of energy. Spent a lot of his career in Dubai. And so he was like, there's a lot of, you know, he's been all over the world, and he's one of those guys that's like kind of pay attention to politics, kind of don't.

He's trying to get more into it. I guess a lot of his friends are trying to get more into it as well. Because of just, it doesn't look, landscape doesn't really make a lot of sense right now. And I think if you just get the news clips, it's like, what the hell is going on? The other one is actually currently in politics, still a very active.

He's actually worked for Trey Pac. So, you know, there's both of them. The person that, the other two people on the flip side that do work in tech, as my good buddy Joshua Pierce, he's actually was at Lyft pre IPO. And he was he has a bunch of stories that stories I don't think I could tell.

So, we'll have to have a drink. But, you know, he tell me stories about that. And then he worked. He works now, and, Web3, blockchain tech. And he's got, a super immersed in that world. But he worked at consensus, which is like one of the big, big, like, Web3 companies. That's like, you think about any of the tech that's actually useful now that people use.

That's not just some, like, random shit coin or meme coin that gets pumped on Twitter. That's the company that usually funds those projects. And now he has an accelerator that he's part of, and, you know, the things like that. And then, my other board member, she is a, she's director of government relations for a big lobby firm and then also the executive director of the Association of Water Companies.

So with all of those people, I was like, we're now anything we say. Theoretically, there is some level of authority and subject matter expertise, but we're also, you know, I run everything by my board before we publish it. So there's there's never like, oh, this is just Gavin. Give him, you know, usually a week I try, you know, week, asterisk.

But to give them opportunity to review, provide feedback. Change things and things definitely change when I, when I send things out, but, you know, that was sort of what I wanted to do with this is I didn't want it to be how I hear a lot of people say things are done in taxes, which is pay to play.

It is the, you know, claim to be nonpartisan, but you're not actually nonpartisan. You got some agenda, whether left or right, to push, or whether it's, you know, you're reading a report, you know, like, well, this is a really good report, only to find out, like at the very bottom and small little tax that it was paid for by a company that also has a vendor bill being, you know, moves through the legislature right now.

So all that to say, that's what really pushed me and drove me

to start the think tank, I love it. So now what does Tax Cap Policy Institute do? What's your mission? What are your goals?

So our mission is to the long or short of our mission is we want to drive private capital for public good.

And the there's a longer version of that on our website that makes more sense.

But the idea is, is that I think there's an aversion to capital sometimes. Both, on the left and even some parts of the right. Money is just sort of looked at as this corrupting factor. And I think that when you actually go into it, it's really easy to do that when you're only in the public sector and you only see it influencing negatively.

Sure. But I think when you actually go into the private sector, you find out there's actually a lot of people that want to do a lot of good. They just don't know how there's not really the framework, tax cap, I believe. And I look at it as sort of that connector. So, you know, we're able to take some of those emerging technologies, emerging policy areas.

I think, like, I don't know if you're familiar with ISP, but they are, a future based, innovative think tank that does federal policy. So they only do, I think it's like energy, energy and tech policy. Those are the only two things they do, but sort of same thing, you know, they're very nonpartisan, very, you know, pro build, pro developed, pro everything out there.

And I look at tax cap and I take on a lot of the same, same mantra and mindset, really is Texas is one of the wealthiest states in the country and by extension, the world. On top of that, we produce the most energy in the country, by extension, the world. There's no reason we can't come together to build solutions that makes sense from the nonpartisan lens.

Because even energy policy is starting to get Partizan now. And that is. That's scary. I was actually, before I was coming here. I was looking at some stats, but, you know, in, in 2023, when you look at the United States and China, China beat us in almost every single fuel mix except natural gas, nuclear and oil and gas and oil.

That's it. They beat us and everything else. So they beat us. And so they beat us. And when they beat us in geothermal, they beat us in all these other areas. And I think that, you know, if you're on it, depending on where you found the foreign policy spectrum, I don't think it matters. The idea should be that we need to make sure that we are building at the same rate and have the same capacity, especially in a state like Texas where energies can't you know, I don't I think it is very unproductive for anyone to try and curtail any energy production, whether that's oil and gas, whether that's solar.

I think there actually could be an argument made for wind. Now that we know it's not as efficient now that there's more studies, but we're only able to do those studies after it's being built and we can sort of evaluate. I think sometimes that gets lost is, you know, we make assumptions and we double down on those assumptions.

Even after the data comes out. And one thing that I can say that I do this as best as I can, so when I'm wrong, I'll say I'm wrong. I'll mess up and I'll try to adapt accordingly. But I think that's sometimes a struggle and a lost art, especially in this space. People, they don't like saying that they're wrong.

Okay.

And for those people who don't really know, what does a think tank do?

So we, we produce the policy research and the data for, the four topics I mentioned tax tech, energy, natural resources and infrastructure.

So we do it from a very futuristic lens though. So we're not going to necessarily talk about, you know, the issue of the day that's happening in energy, you know, like whether or not nuclear is good or bad, we take it that nuclear is good, we should build nuclear.

How do we get there? And what is it going to look like in ten, 20 years, and what are the costs associated? Both literally cost, but maybe the policy costs as well of not getting us there. And so one thing that we're actually doing as an example of this is there's some some research out there. It's a little experimental, but there's a company that's already doing this, and they're starting the pilot programs to turn us, they have the ability turn zombie wells and old oil wells into closed loop geothermal systems.

And, it's super, super new. The main prohibitive right now is cost, the CapEx. It doesn't really make a lot of sense right now. But like with anything, cost is is only a temporary prohibitive. You know, you look at computers and like, they're, you know, when they were first coming out, I mean, it was like five, ten grand for a computer, and you got the best when you went, like, 300 bucks.

You know, as the technology improves, things usually get cheaper. And so we approach that, things like that from a, you know, it's going to come in eight, ten years. Who cares? Why not build the policy framework for it now? So when it does come, not only is it easy, but it can expand rapidly and so with that particular one, you know, we're we're still working on a white paper.

Right. But how do you turn the zombie wells and West Texas into these closed loop geothermal systems? They don't produce a ton of energy, but there's about eight. No, there's 9000 now. 9000 zombie wells in West Texas. Even if you can only get 2000 of those to produce a little bit of energy, you're adding a pretty significant amount of baseload energy to the grid.

You're not going to make a ton of money off of it. But again, the idea shouldn't. I think sometimes when we say driving private capital for public good, that means taking a step back and saying it's okay if something doesn't make ten 1520 x the profit. Even if it means, hey, do we support this just a little bit?

So that way we can get off the ground running? I think that sometimes gets lost and that we always look at things from a dollars and cents and, you know, what's the return now? And good things take time, I think is the long and short of it.

A lot of our listeners are, startup founders and business owners, as well as on the policy side.

So I'm sure they'd be curious to know just kind of the process it took you from the idea, you know, talking to your board members at the bar, really to, you know, reality. So what did those months look like?

I think the, the main idea was it's it's always, you know, what's your what's our mission? You know, not like the mission vision statement, but like, what are we trying to do?

And you do your Swot analysis, you know, like who actually exists right now. How what are they doing. Good. What are they what can be improved. Where do the opportunities.

And I think we landed on three things. You know we wanted to produce white papers and research. We wanted to do training for both the private sector and the public sector.

One of the things I did, actually, the chief is I had a lot of newer chiefs would always come to me and ask me for advice. And I think the there's a not to sound, you know, woe is me. But, you know, there's not really a training manual for how to be a chief. There's not a training manual, even necessarily how to be, to work for a member.

And so, you know, you have to build those, those mentorship rails. And I was, really thankful that I both participated in a mentorship program by another chief where I got to help other chiefs. And then I also just had friends that come from up to come. For me. I cannot tell you how many times I had met chiefs from other members, both Democrats and Republicans, coming to my office break down in tears.

They were like, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. My boss is frustrated. I'm frustrated. I feel so lost. You know, trying to balance the, you know, making sure I'm getting my boss what he needs and, oh, my gosh, there's a person crying in my office, and, you know, I think that I, seeing that I see an opportunity to go, I don't ever want another person to have to go through what they went through, or even when I went through, that's the second thing.

And then I think the third thing is also hosting events that are worthwhile. I think there's too many events in politics across too many, whether it's a think tank, whether it's a, you know, a caucus, whether it's a, whatever it is, everyone gets together. Yeah, one keynote speaker up there, maybe panel, you get serve some rubber chicken that's maybe too hot or too cold.

Green beans, if you're lucky. And you walk away not knowing what the hell to do. There's no call to action. There's no nothing. It's. Everything's hunky dory. Everything's fine. Just business as usual. And it's not to say things are bad, but I think complacency is the worst thing that can happen to society. Because when you become complacent, you ignore real problems.

And then I think sometimes you ignore those problems. You. It's harder to swallow your pride. And so, those are really the three things that we looked at, we sat at and we said, these are what we want to do. These are the opportunities that we're seeing. And then it became a okay, now that's what we want to do.

How do we move on then? And from there, we developed the areas, issue areas that we wanted to do. We figured out who we wanted to be involved, and I did, I did some searching to figure out who I wanted on my board, and I picked who I thought I trusted enough to be nonpartizan trusted enough to be subject matter experts interested enough to actually believe in the mission, what we're doing.

And, I'm very thankful to have a board that's that's just as active as I am. So it's nice. It's it's a blessing, to say the least. That's awesome.

You've mentioned, you know, ways people can have private capital for public good. Do you have any, like, real world examples or kind of you said no call to action.

Is there a call to action you would give to people who say, hey, I want to help. This is something that really interests me, like, how can I put my dollars into helping this mission?

Sure. So I think the, the, I'll give you two answers to that. So an example of how private capital can build public good.

You, when you look at the internet, right. The internet started as mostly a government funded project, and now it is mostly owned by the private sector. Right. But that's an example of, I think, a public private partnership that works. And I'll actually give, another example here.

It's going to sound weird for, for my friends, they're Democrats.

But I think one thing that President Trump is getting criticized for a lot of, I think it's actually a pretty good thing, is his stake in Intel that he's taking, you know, the 10%. I think that's that's great. If the public dollars fund a private service, I don't think it's it's and it's a significant amount. I'm not talking like little teeny, you know, like the $100,000 grants and stuff like that that people get.

Yeah. For the United States, billions of dollars in research. I don't think it's that bad. If we say, hey, you know, we'd like to see some of that back as revenue to help fund certain programs. You know, that's not a bad thing. But it's so funny because that's an example of something where, I've noticed there's like a condemnation almost from, you know, the typical, I would say the there's always going to be the Democrats that anything you know, Trump does is just bad, just wrong.

It doesn't matter. You know, I don't listen to them. There's also the Republicans that, any time the government, you know, either proposes a new tax, either does anything that's not 100% free market, no government. Bad. And at some point, I think people have to take a step back and realize that we're not, funding things in nearly the way that we shared, both at the federal state, at the state level.

And that's driving up a lot of the costs at the local level, and why we're seeing some of those costs to skyrocket. I mean, you when you look at the city of Austin, you know, we have what I think is like a 25% tax increase or something like that. It's pretty significant. But I guarantee you a lot of the same people that are criticizing that 25% increase aren't listening to the concerns raised by the city council.

They're saying we're losing money from the federal level or losing money from the state level, and we're trying to increase our funding to accommodate the growing population, because the idea that you can just freeze your budget and have more people move in and still have the same infrastructure doesn't make sense. But, you know, a building that there's billions of dollars in private capital and a lot of them want that direction.

On how to help people. I think that people are inherently good. I don't I don't buy into the idea that people are inherently evil. And, you know, I think even when you look at the lobby, it's it's a perfect example of this. There is I think, just the session, it was like $800 million spent on lobbying and taxes.

Of that, only 100,000 that was taxpayer funded. The rest of it was all private. Right. You know, and that's an example of private capital trying to go into the public good. You know, we have you can think of, of the, whether what side you're on, if you think the session was the worst of the worst or if you think was the best of the best, the issues, they're normally talking about aren't about companies.

It's all social, cultural issues. And, you know, you think about how much of that 700 million of 800 million went to those cultural issues. It's really not that much. Most of it went to the things that we don't see the infrastructure funding, the tech funding, the water funding. And that's a big one. Those issues, they're not sexy.

No one wants to hear about desalinated water, you know, for two hours. Nobody wants to hear about the struggles of how do you upskill your oil and gas rig workers to fit in with the next generation of tech that's coming up? They'll criticize it and they'll say, why aren't we doing things better? But there has to be a vehicle and a mechanism to communicate those things.

So I love your outlook on lobbyists and lobbying. Right. Like, I definitely think most of our customers are lobbyists. And so they everyone gets a bad rep, right? Like when I was in DC, I had someone once introduce himself. They went, oh, I'm an evil lobbyist. And I like, laughed because I was like, what? What is this reputation?

But yeah, most of it is going, yeah, for the corporate kind of overall good. And I think the, the difference that I see is building for the these public private partnerships, I think there's a difference between a vendor bill, which I'm not a fan of, and building frameworks for a good competitive private market,

you know, and I think sometimes those two thing, it's easy to get them conflated.

But, you know, I mean, I've seen vendor bills in action. Those things are awful, you know, and we shouldn't support them. But any time and I and I think this is it's starting to rise now both on the, the further right and among, Democrats a little bit more now. But when you look at things like, I'll use Jedi agreements, that was like the big thing last session.

HB five Tidehunter. You know, I think that is chapter three and three and through 312 agreements were expiring. And, you know, we had to get this new framework. And that debate was, I mean, hours long and we I don't think they had the votes for it at first. And so it took a lot of, a lot of horse trading and deal making.

But, you know,

the I remember the criticism at the time was do you share what the bill was, HB five. What what it did. Oh I'm sorry. Sorry. Yeah. It's okay. So HP five essentially, it creates these I forget the what they stand for, but it's basically energy, energy and tech agreement to say, hey, if you're going to come into our community, that's fine.

You have to invest this amount of money, you have to create this amount of jobs. And in return, we'll give you, you know, these incentives, right?

The thing that I heard all the time and it's just not true, no matter what you look at, is. Well, you know, we're going to give all this money out, and we're not actually going to see the return back.

There is no data that I've seen that actually says that. And that's one of those things that's that's a feeling. Right? And sometimes it's hard to put our feelings back and look at the data. Here we are, two years later. You look at it, 160,000 jobs have been created, through all of our economic development, agreements.

I think it's something like $200 billion in infrastructure has been invested by these companies. And there's actually been a net positive of of whether it's tax revenue, or revenue that the companies have given the state through these agreements of like over $2 billion. But, you know, that is an example when you build these incentive programs that work, they can actually help people.

And I think the issue is we're always so worried about, well, what about the few that are out of compliance? You know, what if they take the money and we never get it back, we'll claw the money back then. You know, just because two people out of compliance doesn't mean you make the other 98, you know, lose their benefits.

That doesn't make any sense. And I think there's just this fear of of big capital, now capital in the corporate space. And, just because things are getting more expensive and people are looking for that, the enemy, I guess, you know,

it is sad that it is it is demonized and money is talked about in such a in a negative light.

I would say by many, not by everybody, by any means. It was I think it was at the center for Effective Altruism that did the research, that to actually be the most altruistic in the most, of like kind of give the most back is actually to make the most amount of money you could humanly possibly make and then use that for good.

Yeah. Like that would be actually be the better thing than you want individual going and donating your time to help, you know, kids that are at a charity now, that's not a terrible thing to do. The great thing to do. Love that. But use of time. What if you went and spent that making huge amount of money that you could then put back in the community and do something amazing?

What? That's a really cool way to look at it. Yeah, that's kind of how I look at, you know, making and growing wealth and doing that is like what I can do with it is going to be so great.

And that's so crucial because I think the thing is, is and I think sometimes people lose the forest for the trees, you know?

But it doesn't really matter what you talk about. I think most issues can boil down to lack of funding. You know, you think about the homelessness issue here in Austin. I mean, a lot of it has to do with lack of mental health funding. A lot of it has to do with lack of funding for the support services.

You know, I think that we all know that there's needs to be an analogy where it was like, you could go into a room and ask people who wants to volunteer their time to help, something everyone's hand would, you know, maybe have them, you know, raise it. And then it's, you know, you those same people. All right. Now, the people who have their hands raised, who wants to get five bucks while the hands go down, you know, and it's it's at some point whether that's through taxes, whether that's through the private, you know, private capital investing, you will have to understand when he has to leave that pockets it, because if you just hold

on to it, you just I mean, I'll just say, if you just hoard the wealth, you know, what's the point of having all that money if the infrastructure around you is crumbling? What's the point of having all of that if nothing is being done? You know, and I think that's gets lost. A lot of these conversations, you know, especially now at the capital where I don't think people understand how big the numbers get sometimes.

And so it's really hard to grasp, you know, you think about $1 billion, and people go, oh, you know that I've heard some staff say this where they're like, oh, you know, it's just 20 million. It's just 50 million.

And I'm like, that's a lot of money, you know, or someone call it budget does. I mean, that's insane to me, which is wild.

And I'm like, I what? I've always approached it, and I think sometimes a lot of Democrats will like, look at me and they'll be like, okay, Gavin, like, you're being a little like you're being funny when you say this, but I look at every dollar that the state government takes. I think, you know, we have to make sure that when we spend even a dollar, that's a better use of their money than that individual person would spend.

And if it's not, then why the hell do we take a dollar? And I think that drives a lot of the sentiment, too. We see with taxation. I don't think people don't mind paying taxes. I think the reason they hate paying taxes is because they don't see the value and the benefits that happens when they do pay their taxes.

So, you know, like, now that I'm here, I have my own business and a, my own thinktank, as I'm doing my, payroll, I'm like, I'm looking at the tax and I'm like, what the hell is this? You know, like, this is awful, you know, is your perspective, and money stuff and, you know, and but the reason I'm saying that is I'm thinking, okay, well, I'm spending this much in taxes that doesn't even include health insurance.

It doesn't even include the foreign. Okay, that doesn't even include these things. So what how is my taxes going to. Because I'm sure as hell not seeing the benefits right now. At least tangibly explained. You know, thankfully, like, I still have student loans, so thankfully, like, I'm seeing that with a low interest rate on my student loans, I can see that.

But I think it's harder sometimes for us to grasp the benefit which creates that sort of anti-tax sentiment. Which a good example in suburban cities you look at like a McKinney or, you know, any, any the DFW suburbs or Houston suburbs, you don't really hear a ton of anti-tax sentiment because the taxes are either low enough that it's affordable.

It's usually from the schools. Right. The schools are the ones in the suburbs that are raising taxes to account for the growth in population. But the cities, I mean, they try to keep them as low as possible. And you see the direct benefit, the return on that, you know, you have a nice infrastructure, you know, greenery everywhere.

Maybe you have a nice police system, a nice fire station just got built. You're seeing the benefits of your tax dollars built, which is why, you know, we see these crazy bonds pass that are like $1 billion bonds in a town of like 100,000 people or something like that. I think it's harder, though, you know, when you talk about taxes not seeing the value.

So I forgot how we got on that. But no, that makes so much sense. Because my grandma lives in Plano and that obviously everywhere in north of that, that used to be farmland is now, like, beautiful, manicured, you know, very affordable, beautiful homes and amenities. And, that can make sense. And then if you're in maybe, part of the city that the roads are terrible and you're like, where are my taxes going?

You're not getting the value. So I totally see or, you know, but I mean, but there's another thing that does not get talked about. We actually highlighted this in our annual report. People love talking about schools are the biggest driver of our taxes. You know, they're the ones they're making the largest increases. And that may be true and the dollar amount, but it's not true on the percent amount.

The percent amount the special districts have actually raised the most. And that's going to be like your MUDs, your MDS, your turf zones, things like that, where again, most people don't understand there's maybe 10,000 people, in the state of Texas that understand what the hell a ters district is. You know, but those districts are the ones raising money.

And, you know, not not to get political, but, I think that there does need to have a conversation about what we're doing with these MUDs, with these MDS, with these ters, because they are extracting value from business owners, mostly from homeowners sometimes. And there is a lot of conversations where it's not the local community like they're promised, but a company comes in and actually manages those.

And then it's taking all that money. And if it's if it's a for profit company coming in and taking in those tax dollars, they're going to approach it, running that ters district, that MD, like any other business, how do I increase revenue? How do I increase profit while keeping my expenses low? And I don't think that's the purpose of those districts.

The purpose is, is building infrastructure and getting infrastructure in correctly. But again boring tax conversation, not the point.

Well, jumping into another subject that's big on, you know, what you do is I, in tech policy. So I know you just released the AI white paper. Yeah. Tell us more about that. Yeah.

So, going back to kind of what we're just talking about.

Well, praise people really? Well, I think that one thing the Governor Abbott is doing really, really well is his friendliness towards tech AI policy in general. And I think even the legislature, again, one of the last areas, in our state government that's not politicized yet. So we we just passed a sort of omnibus. I, Bill, chairman, we own passed it and, it essentially creates guardrails for what both the state government and companies can and can't do.

And our white paper covers a lot of, you know, if you're a founder and you're like, you live in Texas, or maybe you're planning on deploying something in Texas and you're like, I don't have time to read every single AI policy, but I just sort of want the high level, what's going on? It's perfect for you.

Tells you what, generally what you can and can't do. Like an example. You know, the the government can't train on biometric data. Period. The law is a little more loosey goosey when it comes to what private companies can and can't do.

I'm personally on the end of I don't think companies should be able to do that unless they get your, like, explicit consent.

Consent? That's it, that's it. But, you know, right now, as far as I'm aware, a company can come in and they can train on biometric data. Easy, no questions asked. And there's nothing against the law about that.

Et with AV policies, autonomous vehicles there. We have a great framework and it just need to be improved a little bit.

I think there is a sort of a loophole that it just happens sometimes. But you could, essentially deploy an autonomous vehicle without having to let any authority know. And so that's what Tesla did as an example. They didn't they don't like the Austin City Council. Now they just deployed robot taxis, start testing them, which obviously created an uproar.

And so now as of Monday, if you watch any autonomous vehicle, you have to weigh, tech stock. Now and then tech start has certain standards that they can use to revoke or grant you a license, but they actually have a map.

This is a really cool thing. They have a map on their website where you can see the autonomous vehicles moving on the road.

No way. And you can see it live. You can see the autonomous trucks moving. That's so cool on tech. Start watching it. Yeah,

it's super, super, super cool. And I think I think they just pull samples though because like they're there I saw like five Waymo's on the map. I'm like there's like 500.

There's a million of them.

Yeah, yeah.

There's no way there's 500. Are just five. So I think it's just pull samples, but you can see that moving, on the map and it tells you what companies they are, what their route is. And that's the other interesting thing is they have to define an area of operation. So you can't have like a trucking company being like, yeah, we're just going to operate all over the state.

You got to go point A to point B, like there's not a, there's not a we're going to go from Dallas to El Paso to Austin, Houston, back to Dallas. I don't know the the intricate of how that process works, but I just know that they do have to register. That's another example. There's a lot of stuff.

And I think Texas is leading with this, and we caught this ahead of time actually, last year, too, with deepfakes is, sexually explicit content. There's criminal penalties associated with that. We made sure that you can't have an AI model create anything with children, which is fantastic. So, guys, some states are not I don't know if it's an intentional or unintentional.

I'm hoping it's unintentional, but they're leaving out the children aspect of it

and it's scary. It's going to cause a lot of problems in schools with bullying. Oh, you have that. Like we didn't have this tech when we were in high school and then gone like this here. I thought I had it bad because Snapchat was big and I thought like, oh my God, there's no way you get worse.

But it is like some of this stuff. I mean, I was showing my girlfriend that I just for, you know, shits and giggles. I was like, oh, let me show you how advanced this stuff is. Pulled a video of Speaker Burrows on the dias, and, and it would never post it, but it's him basically going.

I endorsed Democrats, and I'm switching parties from Republican to be Democrat. And like all of it, take is just a little bit of video editing and it would look legit, you know, but you think about both the criminal aspect of that with like, you know, children and stuff. I mean, it is abhorrent. Thankfully, Texas is ahead of the curve.

I made it very clear you cannot do anything, with children, in your I model Texas. And I think though, you know, I try not to wade into culture issues too much, but I think one thing that that does bug me a little bit is people are absolving a lot of their responsibilities as parents to the government and a lot of stuff.

And I think as an example, you know, like, I know you worked on the, like, the age verification like that, you know, and I had a lot of people. Right. Gavin, this bill is awful. I hate it. And I was like, I don't think it's that bad, actually, you know, makes sense for what we're trying to do.

But it can't stop there. And I think more strip clubs. Okay. Right. Exactly.

One can go into a strip club without showing an ID. Exactly. Right. And this was actually the bill that I was thinking of, about being nonpartisan. It was unanimously nonpartisan. Lee. Absolutely approved. Right. So, but there's been some pushback on, like, freedom of speech angle.

Like when you're under 18, you don't have it. And this is kind of where you have to consent. Right? This is kind of where I think there's so many parents who are super involved and doing their job as parents. But then the pushback I would give you is just there's only parents who don't know. Yeah, right.

And like, you want to safeguard those kids so that it's not disproportionately affecting those who just have parents who really care and are really involved. I every parent

and I think that's the thing is there has to and I think about when I was growing up in, in and you might have the same experience, I felt like there was a lot of education in general about kids being online or things like that.

And I think something that doesn't get talked about enough and I it's because it's maybe a little bit harder to talk about organically. But when I was growing up, there was online spaces for kids like. And then there is the stuff for kids that were under, like ten and there's the stuff for tweens. And then there was like the adult stuff, you know?

But now it's there's nothing in between. It's either stuff for like toddlers and then you're immediately thrown into the adult stuff, you know, like Roblox is the game that all the kids, kids love. But Roblox has been around since I was in, like, middle school. It's not a new game at all, but when I was playing Roblox as like, you know, little middle school Gavin, it was just kids.

They made it was a is meant for kids. It was meant like the graphics, the everything was meant for kids. No predators on there. Now you have predators now. Now there's a very clear appeal to people with money, to people. How do we get these adults in there and play these games as well? Because they have money to spend.

And I think that sometimes when you have those, you have those lack of spaces, there's a it's kind of like what you said. There's the okay, well, now the only alternative is we kind of have to hate this because

we don't want kids on these websites where, you know, especially Twitter like it is. It's it's it's bad.

I yeah, it's, you can get a lot of crazy stuff on Twitter. It's not really doesn't seem censored. And I going to what you said I agree. Like in when I was in high school we had, you know, a desktop computer and if I was messaging someone from school or someone, my mom was there watching me mess, like she was there for the hour that I was allowed to communicate or message someone like, every time she was in the room.

So. And now let's just not have it. Yeah, it and it's I think it's really unfortunate too. And I don't know, I think it's, it's symptomatic of a larger cultural thing that the United States has to figure out, because I don't think this is unique to Texas, but even think about the media that people are consuming. There is I was looking at a study, I forget what the name of it, but essentially it looked at what is the media that kids are consuming now.

And a decade ago, it was there was again, this sort of gradual tiers. There was, you know, you'd watch the, you know, Paw patrol at this age, then you'd maybe graduate, you know, like SpongeBob and then, you know, their baby boomer, the sort of young adult cartoons. And then you'd get into the adult stuff middle school kids now are going from, like, yeah, using the patrol thing like Paw Patrol to Love Island at 12.

Yeah. And it's and it's and you're right. And you know, and I think that the, the also the thing that is sort of become the easy thing to do is use children as a defense on both sides. And it is the, you know, think of the children, think of the think of the women, think of this. And it's like it is such a cop out to do, to just throw people up like that, as if they're monoliths and thinking about things in a really critical way of what are we doing and how does this actually impact people?

Is going back to, again, to what we're trying to do, have those really difficult, nuanced conversations in a respectful way, where I think we all agree most part on what the issue is. We just may disagree on what the solution is. But I think sometimes about these debates and arguments on the the floor and stuff like that, and it's the immediate accusations left and right and it's exhausting and not productive.

But anyway, so, you know, that's an example of, you know, going back to the I, I policies, you know, we also dispel a lot of myths and things like that. And, one of the big ones is about data centers. Everyone loves being an expert in data centers. Now. Everyone loves knowing everything.

There's like,

thanks for

for teaching everyone.

Oh, you know, and I think, I know a lot of the data center guys that actually operate these data centers. And, for context, there's about five different types of data centers. So it's not just one, one data center, period. And our white paper, we use the hyperscale data center, which is like it's the behemoth.

It's the stuff that like a Facebook would build. It's like usually million square feet. They consume a ton of energy. But, you know, that's the ones that are giant and use the most resources. Well, I was like, do they actually use a lot of energy? Do they actually use a lot of water? I hear, and I'm reading all these articles all the time saying they are, but are they actually and so just like I would expect any other, you know, person to do start out with my thesis, which was I don't think they use as much water, but I do think they use a good amount of energy.

Let me dive back into, dive in. And so the first thing I did was I, try to find out how much energy and water do these data centers use. And surprise, surprise, there's not a lot of not a lot of data. Not a lot of data on the data centers. And so I had to I found through, like, hours of searching this group that only does water, water infrastructure for data center companies.

And they have this aggregated report that I don't think it's supposed to be public, but it's hosted on WordPress. And, you know, sometimes those WordPress attachments get caught up in, in search filters. So I found this PDF that's it's talking about all this research they did and essentially found, a good starting point for what their average data center, hyperscale data center produces in terms of energy.

How power efficient are they and the water usage. And so I basically said, all right, well, I'm going to take those because that's all I can do is so the only publicly available data I have and apply that to the standards that we have in Texas. The thing that I think is really interesting about that, though, is also the methodology of of how data centers operate, because it's also clear people don't understand how they work.

I think they assume that water comes in and it just disappears like it never and never goes anywhere. The reality is, most of these data centers use a closed loop system. And, you know, I'm a big gamer. I have a PC, and so I have a close, closed loop water cooling system in my PC, too. It's the same concept, a little different on a larger scale, but it's the same concept.

So when the water comes in, they recycle it. It's not like it's it's just getting pumped in and out.

But that's a misconception for sure, because I have heard a lot of people argue that, like, oh, this is such a waste of water and what it needs to just, you know, type one character. But yes, it does need the water, but it's looped, it's looped and recycled.

And it's also I think the, the other sort of myth that I'll push back on is that it's always using fresh water. When you talk to a lot of the companies, it's not like they just stick a pump in the ground and they just start pumping out water. Yeah, they have to buy the water.

And they usually buy it from these big, municipal districts, and it's cheaper normally Dubai dirty gray water than it is to buy fresh water.

And if you are using fresh water, normally, it's actually for humidity control, not cooling. A lot of people don't know this, but you can't have your servers, too dry to dry. It actually creates static electricity. So you actually need a little bit of humidity in there to help dissipate some of that electricity. But going back to the numbers, you know, the average day, and, and I can't remember the exact water usage, but, the electricity usage is insane.

Like, and, I mean, it is scary. Yeah. There's tech. This is only has about 400 data centers. And there's only 700 hyperscale data centers in the world. I don't know how many in Texas are hyperscale, but one hyperscale data center in Texas uses 0.2% of our grid's energy. That's an issue that that is bad.

That there needs to be some incentive and alignment there where, in something I've thought about proposing is, you know, we as a state will we as a state will give you X amount of dollars to build your own generation for your data center. So that way you're not using the strain on the grid. The agreement that we'll do though is you have to sell the whatever excess energy you have back to the state, you know, to pay off the loan or whatever it might be.

So that way, you know, again, it's incentive alignment. You know, now, as a data center, I have an incentive to build my own power station. I may be getting this low cost, low interest loan from the state where I can build that. The agreement is I just have to pay them back. Why would I not take that and X amount of time it's going to pay itself back.

But I think, you know SB six by Senator Phil King. It's a fantastic bill. I think he does a lot of really good stuff. It ensures that at the long short of it is it ensures that, I think 75, 75, 75 megawatt hour gigawatt I I'm freaking out somewhere. I think it's gigawatt. Those facilities in cases of emergency can be disconnected from the grid.

Which going back to 2021, you know, seeing off the grid strain coming up in one time. I mean, I remember it was like, hold off for a minute so we can get, you know, just because power is on that does not mean start doing your laundry, turn on your dishwasher. You know, all those, energy intensive things.

Just hold on a second. I think it's the same kind of concept. Secondly, know on the water. Again, going back to the enumerate conversation, people don't understand how big numbers are. Texas is expected by 2030 to use 9 trillion gallons of water a year. Of that 9 trillion, or, I'm sorry, 6 trillion, 6 trillion gallons of water a year of that, 51% goes to agriculture.

And it's not the agriculture I think people think it is either. It's usually like alfalfa in the desert. It's, you know, like, why are we going, hey, in areas that have drought like conditions, it's not the the it's not the data centers coming in and draining water. On top of that, when you talk to any big water, even the water down the board or, you know, the association, water companies, whoever might be any person that knows water will tell you the biggest loss of water in the state is actually pipes.

We lose millions of gallons to pipes every year. It's whether they're leaky. Maybe they're old, but it is a real problem that, you know, when you talk about water policy, those two things alone, I mean, would save us millions, if not potentially billions in a decade. When you look at data centers in these hyperscale data centers, they use 0.002% of water.

Not even close to that aren't there. It's every single data center in Texas, which there not was a hyperscale data center. All of them combined would only use 0.79% of Texas is water that's in use. That's not available water that's the expected water usage. We have way more water available than that. I mean, way more. But the thing I have to say to be careful about is just because we have all that water doesn't mean you go and build your data center wherever the hell you want, because some parts of the state have more water in others.

So, you know, North Texas and northeast Texas, a ton of water, a lot of water. Makes more sense to build data centers there. I don't think it's responsible to build a data center in places like, you know, San Antonio, where they're under pretty big drought conditions. Right now. It's, you know, residents are under, you know, water usage warnings.

And I think it can't be responsible to build those data centers in areas like that. But again, they're not going to be the big contributors. So those two things combined, you know, we use those data centers, use a hell of a lot more energy than I think people understand, but so much less water than people use. And, the little fun thing that I did was I found research that figured out how much water energy use a ChatGPT query uses.

So yeah. And so I scaled it. I heard I scale it down, scaled it up to give an idea of how much, you know, like one, one query uses, how much you would need to be the equivalent of, like, a shower, the equivalent, you know, all these things and long short of it is your one queries is not going to do nothing.

Even if there's like 100,000 a day in Texas, it's still probably I can do much. It's for the older, less efficient models with 7.7.5 nine milliliters for every, query you send, you need, like, something like 500 to get to, like, a gallon of water. Which is like. And again, that's not why that just disappears.

That's the, the cooling usage of it. Yeah. So this water's already circulating. It's already flowing. It's not like you're pulling it out of anywhere.

There's just not I don't think that there's really a better way to measure it right now. So that's why we have to to use it like that. That makes me feel better. Yeah. What makes you feel so much?

Yeah, I don't I don't feel I feel bad I usage, so that's really good. Don't feel bad about it at all. Well we covered a ton today. Yeah. And thank you so much. You I've definitely learned a ton as well. So I'm excited to read more of your white papers as they come out. And do you have some I know you have some events coming up if you want to do some plug, share how people actually find out about them and what you're doing.

Sure.

So we actually we're doing our launch event on October 3rd. It's super exciting. As far as I'm aware, it's the only event of its kind where we're taking both a public sector and a part of the private sector that I don't think has been tapped yet. There's going to be a lot of tech, sort of tech founders there.

There's going to be a lot of venture capital folks there. Private equity. But we're also, we currently have the PC chairman, Thomas Gleason, is going to be there. It's talking about

some of, again, energy water usage stuff. We've confirmed, vice chair Senator Garcia Hernandez. She's going to talk a little bit about federal state relations. You know, how that money actually comes from the federal government down to the state government?

We have a moderator as well, Richard Saleen, who, his whole thing is energy, water infrastructure. And how do we create a more resilient future? He's going to be moderating one of the panels, and we have some guests that we're working with, their schedules, trying to figure out where they can come. But, you know, we we're expecting to have a few federal lawmakers and a couple of state lawmakers there as well.

That's on October 3rd here in Austin. That will be from 11:00 Am to about 1:30 p.m.. It's also day one of ACL,

so it's a good excuse to get out of work to go to a. Yeah, you got to go to a work event and then you can just leave our event, go to ACL. No.

But you know tickets they're starting at pretty cheap 25 bucks, for general admission, 125 for VIP. And, I mean, it's it's just a good time. It's not going to be like, you know, we were talking about earlier, there's events where you walk away with nothing. We're sending out an after action report talking about things that the private sector can do better to help public policy with the public.

Policymakers need to do better to help the private sector. So that'll be exciting. Very exciting. Yeah, I'm excited to come. And, how can people find you, your website, follow you.

So if you get a text cap.org, which, by the way, I'm surprised that was available. I thought tax cap like Texas Capital would have been, you know, taken.

It wasn't, but you get a text cap that org that is our website. That's where we host all of our, our research, our white papers, blog post,

interview, whatever it might be. You sign up for our email list, I'm very careful and consider about

how many emails we send out. So I'm not blowing people up.

Yeah. We usually only notify people whenever we have new research, whether it's events, things like that. Or, you know, you follow us on Twitter. It's tax cap policy, all platforms, not just Twitter I love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. Appreciate it. Thank you.

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A three-judge federal panel in El Paso will open hearings Oct. 1 to decide whether Texas’ new congressional maps unlawfully dilute minority voting power. At the same time, the Texas Department of Public Safety announced it will stop issuing or renewing commercial driver’s licenses for DACA recipients, refugees, and asylum holders under a new federal directive. Lastly, Governor Abbott unveiled a $562 million low-interest loan from the Texas Energy Fund to NRG Energy, the largest awarded so far, to expand natural gas generation at Baytown’s Cedar Bayou station and help meet the state’s growing power demands.

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Welcome back to Bills and Business, the show where we explore the intersection of policy and technology. I'm your host, Laura Davis, co-founder of USLedge. And today we're joined by someone I know really well, Senator Angela Paxton. She represents around a million people in Senate District eight, in the state of Texas. And she's not just a leader on issues like education, protection of children, and innovation.

She's also my former boss. She's got a background as an educator and has a deep interest in our technology, shaping our future. She's uniquely positioned to share her wisdom today. We're catching her in the middle of a special legislative session in Texas. So we're especially grateful she's taking time to talk with us. Enjoy the show.

When did you start teaching or what did you take a break at all?

But when you were with the little ones, so, you know, I, I majored in mathematical science, math and science. I went back to school, got my master's in education, and then got certified to teach. Right. And then I started teaching, kind of right off the bat then before we had kids or anything, can finish law school, we moved back to Texas.

And then I was, I was back to teaching and, then we, I  got pregnant with Tucker, our oldest, and I finished out that school year and then stayed home with the kids. And so we were actually homeschooled up until kind of middle elementary, with him. And then, he went back to school, and then the next one went back to school,

and I was home school and the little ones.

And then when the youngest one got to second grade, I think, I went back to teach, so. Okay. Yeah. So Tucker was 14, so I guess it, I kind of took a 14 year break from, I guess, professional teaching, but I kept teaching, at home with my kids. So it's been actually an interesting background for what I do legislatively now because I'm, as an educator.

Right. And a school counselor. I taught and also was a parent in all of those settings in a private school setting, in a homeschool setting, and in public schools. Oh, yeah. So so I get how different things work for different families and different kids in different families, and sometimes at different points in life. Right. And so, you know, what I love about Texas is no matter what you're after, you can find it here.

And I think we've done a lot of great things, to help make our public schools better, to help give homeschool families the support that they need and, and better options. And now with, of course, with school choice, giving more families the opportunity to do private schools if they're interested in that. And of course, charter schools are kind of in that sort of a hybrid right between public and and private as far as experience goes.

But but of course, it's so much more affordable than for a, for family. But it's going to really equalize things. And I think it's a, it's a great example of a rising tide lifts all boats. And it's going to be it's going to be great for families. It's going to be great for kids student achievement. And that means since children are literally the future, that means a better Texas and a better future Texas.

Well, I think you're so uniquely positioned with your background, like you said, to to handle education issues, having literally taught in every single type of education space. And then specifically with protecting children online, which is what we got to work together on, which was some of my favorite work I've ever done.

What initially kind of got you excited to help in that space and even know that that was a space that was needed.

You know, things have changed a lot with technology over the years. So when did you start to realize that kind of online safety for children was important?

Well, I think it started when I was kind of in that break of being home with my kids, between my, having taught being home with kids. And then I went back to teaching during that time when I was home with my kids, and, and homeschooling, the internet had come in.

And so, you know, I, I remember,

seeing things as the internet was kind of everybody was figuring it out. Right. And I remember, realizing I remember my son when he was ten years old, calling from the other room and going, mom, mom and I remember walking into, the room where we had a little, you know, desktop computer, a lot bigger and bulkier than the kind of things that we all have now that I mean, now we have these things in our pockets right?

Yeah. But it was in in the office. It was where I could see things. He and a friend were playing, and I walked in and his friend had said, hey, type this. And he did. And there were pictures, just scrolling and he couldn't make it stop. And, and he called to me. Now that was eye opening to me on, on many, many levels.

But, you know, the, the average age of first exposure for children to porn, for quite some time has been around the age of ten.

He was ten. Oh, wow. Which was way too early. I, I feel like it's getting earlier, though. Well, it is in the last in the last three years, I have seen studies that indicate that that that the, that the age has dropped to eight as the average age of first exposure.

And you know what that means. The average means that there are kids younger than that that are seeing porn for the first time. And of course, you know,

porn is just one element of the landscape of this, digital jungle that kids really are growing up in today. And just like the real jungle, jungles don't naturally grow fences or guardrails or warning signs.

And so that's why I think all of this is so important. So I had an awareness of it as a parent, but when I was teaching and I was I was watching all of this kind of evolve, in the classroom. And then, of course, I moved into a position as a guidance counselor, and I was constantly working with with the teachers about how we use this in good ways and not bad ways, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Regarding technology, in the classroom that I was also dealing with, parents and kids and social media came in during that period of time. So I had a lot of awareness just from real life. So when I came into the legislature and some of these ideas started popping up, like, what? What can we do about this?

And parents were coming to me and saying, you know what? There need to be some, there need to be some legal frameworks around some of these things. You know, we would love in a perfect world, everyone self-regulate, right? Every. Well, in fact, art form of government is built on the concept of self-governance, right at the individual level that that each of us is operating in a way that that has integrity, that, exhibits moral leadership.

Right. But we also know that whenever you have a lot of people, whenever you have a lot of kids, things are going to go wrong and people are going to make bad choices. Sometimes they make bad choices by accident. Sometimes they do it very deliberately. But we we need to, pay attention to this, as legislators. And the reason is because our kids are counting on us to do that like we do in the real world

all the time.

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And kids can't self-govern the way that an adult can. So that's what I, you know, learn so much about with you as the brain science behind what pornography actually does to the brain, because at first it's kind of like a moral, piece. You're like, everybody knows that children's pornography is wrong. I think most people agree with that.

But when you actually go into the brain science, you know, it's bad for adults for their, for their brain, but obviously it's, that's their individual choice over 18. But when you look at what it does to the child's development and all of that, and, you know, we were in a time where we didn't have access, I was about 16 before, we had a desktop computer at home.

And, had suspicions that my brother was looking at bad things as the older sister and he turns out he wasn't. I think I told you this silly story before, but I had told my parents he's doing bad stuff on that computer. You got to watch him. And my mom went into his computer one day and went into the photo folder, and there were a thousand pictures labeled cats, you know, cat.

And she went, Lori, you got to leave the room. I don't know what's in here. She opened it. It's thousands of pictures of kittens. So I'm sorry, Ryan, sorry about your bubble. They're down in here. Right. Well, they're hilarious and sorry right out of you, but, to this day, I still get him cat stuff, but it shows that we were aware of things like that.

But at that time, you know, it was still images. It wasn't the same as now we're knowing, which is, you know, there's communication in these different portals online leading to trafficking and grooming and, but really specifically what it does to the human brain to see all the super natural stimulus that they never would have gotten in any existing reality.

Exactly. That could never happen. That's exactly right. And and, you know, to your point of these were just still images or

even if they're, they're videos, movies, right now, what we're talking about are things that adapt to your preferences. Yeah. And so, you know, you bring up the brain science, which I think is an important thing for for people to pay attention to.

And we we have the ability we know a lot more about the brain than we ever have. And we understand a lot more about how the brain develops, particularly with children and so one of the things that we know from looking at how addiction is treated in adults, whether it's an addictive, behavior like porn use, if it is an addictive substance, like an, you know, an illegal drug or alcohol or tobacco, these things are addictive in different ways.

But addiction is addiction to the brain. Addiction work has a mechanism. And what happens is something. And a novel stimulus, triggers a release of dopamine. And it turns out, a lot of experts will say it this way. What you're really addicted to isn't the substance or the behavior. What you're really addicted to is the dopamine hit.

And so for different people that has different flavors. But but what it does is it rewires the brain. And so folks that treat adults with addictions, there are ways to kind of go back to like rewire the rewiring so that you can kind of get back to what was normal. Right? When you talk about a child, a child's brain is in the process of wiring.

So what's happening with the child when they are, exposed to, to things that are addictive algorithms, which is common in and probably typical there are, you know, these these things are addictive by design. So what you're ending up with is these kids don't even get to start out with a normal brain. So before they ever hit, you know, kind of adulthood, they are they have been wired differently.

And that brings up a lot of interesting implications as far as treatment goes. Because what do you do then? You're not you're not getting back to normal. This this was never normal for them. And and it you know, there's a lot there that you can kind of go on and on forever with. But it really does matter for a child's future that we do the things so they can have a healthy upbringing.

Right. And they can develop healthy emotional habits, mental habits, physical habits, spiritual habits, all of those things matter for a kid to have a healthy future. And so, yes, it really does does matter that we take care of kids. We've always known that. And there are a lot of things we do in, you know, the physical world.

And some of the legislation that I've carried has kind of been, around that direction that, you know, something like age gating, for example, or age verification, a couple of bills that, I've carried are in that direction. And, you know, you, you and I've worked on those, some of those together. And we've certainly talked about a lot of them together.

But, the idea that in the real world, a kid can't buy age restricted products, things we, we as a society have decided this is not good for kids. This is not healthy for kids. For whatever reason, alcohol, tobacco, just as starters. Pornography, right? A kid can't go in. It used to be it was a magazine, right?

It was a physical product. But. But you had to show an ID, and the person at the at the cash register had to check that ID, verify. And if they and if they didn't do that or they ignored what the age was on the ID, there were consequences for the vendor. Right? So these are the you know, kids have always had fake IDs and that kind of stuff.

We know that. But but that's a separate problem for the for the vast majority. This really does go a long way in preventing kids from being exposed to harmful substances. Or behaviors. So in the real world we do that and and people know it works. It creates transparency and it creates accountability. And those two things, you know, the thing about transparency is most of us, whether you're an adult or whether you're a little kid, most of us act better when we know people are watching.

Right. Sure. Even even a little kid knows that. So transparency goes a long way to helping us all learn how to self-govern. Right. And we do have to teach kids how to self-govern. That's why these things are important. They help us give our kids ways to do that. But

but a lot of this legislation that I've worked on has just extended those kinds of protections into the digital space.

So House Bill 1181, which went all the way to the Supreme Court, that was our bill. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about that. I am very excited that that passed and was flying success and was found that it was absolutely true and upheld. I hear you actually there in the Supreme Court that that how was that?

It was really interesting. You know, to get to be in, the room for oral arguments around a Supreme Court case is it's it's an amazing experience. And it's for your bill. Yeah. For your own bill. That's crazy. So, you know, one of the things that I felt, was very encouraging as I was there is all nine justices, and, you know, the justices kind of run the gamut from more liberal to more conservative.

Sure. Some of them, you never know exactly where they're going to land, but but, you know, as I was listening to their questions of, both parties, both, you know, counsel of both parties, state of Texas. And then, what was it? It was, you know, some kind of free speech, kind of a thing that represents the porn industry.

Okay. And we're talking about for kids, that's the thing for Congress. And this was passed completely, you know, almost unanimously, I think there was only one vote in the House that was against it. And it was completely bipartisan. Yeah. So I was I think that's really the main industry that would be opposing it. Right, right. And

the Free Speech Coalition, I think that that was, the, the party.

So, anyway, you know, that was their argument was this was restricting free speech and that I guess that requiring age verification would have a chilling effect on adults using this. And I and, you know, of course, the argument is we already do this. And, I mean, if you went to buy physical pornography, which I guess most people don't do anymore, but it that was all there was for a long time.

Did that have a chilling effect? Well, maybe it it maybe somebody doesn't want to go in and say I want to buy this, but it doesn't prevent them from doing what they want to do. Now I will tell you one of the things about online pornography, well, about addiction in general, they talk about the three A's of addiction, accessibility, affordability and anonymity.

So, so those three things together really do, push things toward being more addictive, in their, in their nature. Right. And so, you know, no doubt it was true that, you know, anonymity, I, I would imagine has,

an a word with regard to online porn, right? No one knows. I think of a phone immediately when I think of that.

That's all those things. Everybody has a phone. Yep. Most people in the country, including kids, kids have phones now, so it's very easily accessible. And you're anonymous when you're online and you're searching for things where you think you are anyway. Yeah, we're definitely not. We can go into that to the data privacy side. It's still a whole other thing.

Oh yeah, they're tracking. But but with all of that said, you know, the argument was this is infringing on adults, right. But the argument of the state of Texas was this is a common sense, time tested approach in the physical world for protecting kids from this very type of content, which has been demonstrated to be harmful to them.

It's defined in Texas law as harmful material, right? That's what it's called. Pornography is called harmful material because it is harmful for kids. So anyway, listening to the justices, ask questions of both, you know, both, sets of attorneys there, you could tell that everybody was pretty on board with, you know, it makes sense to protect kids.

The question is the mechanism for doing it right. And so, you know, I felt good about that. The, the concept of the law was going to be upheld. But, you know, were they going to let it be a verification? So of course. And, I guess it was in June, the, the, the, ruling came down and we were really pleased.

You know, they upheld the case. The the other thing that's important about that is when the Supreme Court rules on any issue, if they if they if they, support it, it encourages more of that from the states. Right, right. If they if they shut it down then it has a chilling effect. Right on that same kind of legislation from the state.

So that was one of the things that was really, I think in a deeper way than just the specific law that was upheld there. I think that's really important is because it indicated from the Supreme Court that they recognize that states have a responsibility and a duty to protect kids, and that this makes sense.

And there's so many parents that I met with constituents of yours that and around the country, in the state that were coming in and saying, this happened to my kid.

And I never expected that. And I think it's the parents that aren't necessarily watching or don't even know about it. So it's kind of protecting those people. But one thing that really got me when I was watching all the news around it was that it was really focused on the age verification piece, which is great, and this model legislation now.

But the piece that, you know, was unique, that you added was the warning sign that the pornography sites should disclose. I think there's a lot of people who don't know the damage it's doing, even as an adult, and having that medical health warning and an option to click a link for addiction, that's like a free option to help, that I think just makes a lot of sense to know.

Maybe it is bad. They have that on gambling sites. They have that on cigarets, on smoking, like a having a warning to alert people. I think that was a really unique way of, of adding that piece.

Well, and, and I don't know if you remember, the, you know, you were working in my office when we, when we came up with the idea.

I think you're the one that maybe even found the drug legislation from it was it was, it was built around a law that had been passed in Louisiana, and I remember, you know, we had talked as an office about as I just told everyone on staff, you know, if if you see anything, if you have ideas or we come across things that will help protect kids online, I want to know about them.

And you brought this idea to me and I'm like, that is a great idea. We should do this. And so we started moving in that direction.

But we also talked about what would make it better. And part of what we felt like would make the the law even more effective then the, the age verification, piece of it was a health warning, because this material is addictive.

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So to put a health warning on, the websites that the, the porn sites, in addition to requiring age verification to enter the portal, that they would also, display that warning and an addiction hotline. Right. So for help because we also know that lots and lots of people who are using porn secretly, they hate themselves for it.

Sure they are. They're hiding it. They don't want anyone to know, and they can't stop because they're addicted. And so it would also maybe give someone a way out somewhere to go. Unfortunately, the court had struck that part, both of those parts out. So that was not included in the Supreme Court decision because it wasn't part of the the law that went, to the Supreme Court.

That's that's a place that we have continued to talk, though, in my office, about finding a way to get back. Get back to that because, you know, it's.

Part of this bill is about, stopping certain kinds of things from happening, kids accessing this kind of material. But we also want to do something to help people who are struggling, who want to make a difference. So, you know, that's something we haven't quit on. And we've had multiple conversations, even with, you know,

the government relations folks over and, the lawyers in the, in the AG's office who, were very instrumental in this particular case being at the Supreme Court.

So we're still working on how we can go in that direction, because it's not enough to stop the bad. You have to help, support the good for sure.

So what other things have been working on from this last legislative session that are in this space now, because you're really a figurehead in the area of protecting kids?

Well, you know, you mentioned, a minute ago, Laura, about, how a lot of parents are just kind of not aware.

Right. You know, in my opinion, as, as, school counselor, as I was working with parents, you

know, one of the things I saw all the time, parents would come to me and they're like, we don't know what to do about this or this or this, right. And part of the reason they were come to me was I was the counselor at the school, but I was also a parent, and for the most part, my my kids were now older than most of the parents that I was working with.

So, you know, that kind of gave me, sort of a platform to speak to them as this person to person, mom to mom about, you know, this is something lots of kids go through. You might not know that with your oldest child, right? If you might just think, oh my gosh, this is the end of the world.

And it might be something that's actually really common or whatever. So I could kind of talk about things from that standpoint. But but a lot of what I was talking to parents about were things that none of us had been parented through ourselves. So you don't always even know what to look for. I think most parents now realize there's a lot out there, and I don't know what all of it is.

Right? So I think one of the important things that we did this last session was legislation to make sure that parents are put in a place where they really legally become the gatekeepers of their children's digital operations, and that was in the form of the App Store Accountability Act. It's a great bill. What it basically requires is that before a kid can a minor can download an app, or purchase an app, their parents have to give consent.

Right? So that's that's the bill in a nutshell. I think it's a very powerful tool, for parents because now any decision that their kid is making, is going to have to come through them. Right? So the app stores already know. They know how old every user is when you, when you, set up a new phone, a new device, an iPad or a laptop or whatever, all of the things that you have to go in and create the account, it's there your age.

Right. And so they know whether the user is a minor or an adult. And, you know, it makes sense to do this at the App Store level, not the the individual developer, the developer level. Doing it at the App Store level creates more continuity and uniformity in the way things are done. It requires age ratings and descriptions of, the apps so that parents can read.

What does this app do, you know, are the apps doing that yet or. That's a great oh, that's a great question. Some some have already been proactively doing that. And in fact, it was interesting. Some of the tech companies that were opposed to the bill came in and said, we don't need a law to do this.

We're already doing this. Okay. Interestingly enough, though,

there was also testimony from lots and lots of parents and users of different apps that came in and said, yeah, some some of these, developers do provide this kind of information. But what we realized that was that a lot of the descriptions were incredibly misleading, and the age ratings were in some, in some cases, just downright thoughts.

Inappropriate. I mean, there were there were, examples of parents who came in and talked about things that they went in and they were just, you know, they're being responsible for their kids. And they they would go in and kind of peruse and see what kind of things were on their phones or on their on their, tablets.

And they would find, you know, this app was 12 and it was, you know, designated for 12 and under. And, you know, it had a description about, you know, it's like you can make cartoons and stuff like that. And they go into it. And the 12 and under included, nude depictions and, you know, things like that.

I think most people would say, and certainly most parents, would say that they don't want 12 and under, they don't consider nude images appropriate for 12 and under. So what this is going to do, going back to, those kind of two pieces of transparency and accountability, the App Store ability, the App Store Accountability Act is going to give parents like a direct line of sight, into what their kids are doing, and they get to decide if that's good for their kid or not.

And if they say yes, and then they realize that this app has been deceptive in its description or inaccurate in its description, they have the ability to, through the, Deceptive Trade Practices Act to hold these, developers and app stores, accountable.

the thing that stood out to me with the App Store accountability Act of somebody that had, it was I think it was one of the very many stakeholders, that I was chatting with through the years when I was working with you.

And they said something that was really crazy with an app that was some apps have communication mechanisms where you can have strangers contact your kid, and it's happening more and more on, like, very innocent seeming gains. So

do you think there's even something that people can do other than just warn parents and educate them on what's going on?

Because how do you stop a chat room in a game? And that seems where, you know, children are getting groomed and trafficked. Is there anything that can be done on the legislative level for that?

Well, I think that, you know, we're we're figuring a lot of this out in real time, right? Because the technology is evolving in real time.

So, yes, you know, one of the one of the things that even with the age verification, Bill, that now has, you know, survived and thrived through Supreme Court street scrutiny, you know, there are there are, platforms that kids can go to to be coached on how to circumvent age verification. Sure. So, sure. You know, as soon as you fix one thing,

bad actors figure out a way to lure kids back, right?

To lure kids back. So, you know, as you were, as you were talking about, you know, an innocent seeming, application, a game or something like that. Where these evil people are, are grooming children and exploiting children, and, you know, that happens in the real world, too. And if you think about this, it is one of the reasons that you have pedophiles and sex offenders, who haven't gotten caught yet that embed themselves in places where, I mean, they're predators and they they go where the hunting is, they go where there is prey.

And, you know, I remember this, when my kids were little, we would go to Chuck E cheese, meet a friend. I'd meet a friend at Chuck E cheese. Kids would all play. And I remember from time to time I, you would kind of notice someone that was there. And it's like, why is a grown man by himself at Chuck E cheese on a Thursday at lunch?

That doesn't make sense. That's it. And, you know, I usually keep an eye on someone like that. Right? But but it happens in the digital space as well. And so, you know, I do I do know this we can pass laws all day long, but if we don't equip and educate parents, they really are the first and the last line of defense for their own children.

And they're it. It's why it's so important that as legislators, we always make sure that parents have all the tools, and that we're not keeping parents from having tools that they need. Because at the end of the day, again, in a, in a country that's founded on self-governance, in a family that looks like parents, looking out for their kids and, and doing their best to be aware and to, do the things that they need to do, which is incredibly challenging.

I think about it every day because now I have six little grandkids, right, that are four and under. And, you know, my kids are 26 to 32. They weren't parented through a lot of these things, right? They they kind of were just a little bit older than, all of this stuff kind of coming in. Right. And so a lot of it, they've kind of had to figure out themselves.

And, you know, I'm proud of my kids. My kids have pretty good North Stars. But, you know, we all make mistakes. And all you can really do is learn from a mistake. But there are some mistakes that are really hard to come back from. For example, you know, if you've got, now we're talking about chat bots that develop intimate relationships and, and are designed to create emotional dependency.

That's one thing when it's an adult, but that's another thing when it's a kid. And there are already reports, numerous reports of these kinds of things resulting in a suicide. And parents find after the fact that this is the result of technology, that they're that their kid was using. And so I think one of the things, one of the principles we always have to remember, you can't make a rule for everything as soon as you make if it's all about rules, then someone will find a way around the rules.

I think it's why we have to be thinking in terms of principles. And and I think three of those principles are transparency and accountability and parental consent.

I think the transparency piece really sticks to me for how I know Eric and I have talked about what we'll do with our kids and how we'll handle things. And I think having an open dialog with the kids is probably the most important thing, because there's going to be things that come up as technology evolves, like you've said, that are completely new, that we've never faced, you know, where we don't know some of the new slang and the new words out there.

We're like, so behind. So of course we're not going to know about some of these, these apps and things and even just new technology that will come out, but just having an open dialog conversation where they can talk to you and say, hey, this is happening and not be ashamed of it, I think is so big because, yeah, you are hearing about suicides and, and mental health issues with, with especially young girls and social media.

There's so many issues and I think everybody's aware of it. But having a conversation, making it public, talking about it with parents and in schools, and allowing the kids to just say something is wrong here and talk to you about it. I think it's probably the best thing people can do. It's it's really important. And it's not easy.

It's not easy. But I think that's important that what you're talking about as far as an open dialog and relationship with your children, it's important in so many ways. But for purposes of what we're talking about, I think,

I think in particularly two ways, you know, one is that number one, you need to have a real relationship with your child so that your child knows the difference between a real relationship and a counterfeit or unhealthy relationship.

You need to have a healthy relationship with your child, for that reason. Right. But but the second is you do have to, and this is, this is really hard and it is really hard, because, you know, as parents, we are tasked with teaching our kids. Right? And wrong. And, and part of that is accountability when they make bad choices.

Right. But but you really do have to think about how to navigate that in a healthy way. And, and not all of us had that modeled for us. So, you know, I'm thankful that there are a lot of resources for parents, on on this topic, which is really not about technology. It's about relationships, but it applies everywhere.

Again, back to principles, right? But, you know, when I was, a school counselor, I used to do, a quarterly meeting for moms, and we would talk about different parenting topics. And I remember addressing this in particular, and I said, you know, you you do want to teach your kids to learn from their mistakes, right? And and everyone makes mistakes.

Everyone has failures.

And if you're an adult, you know, this really the things you have learned the best, you probably learn because you screwed up right. It's our mistakes that we really go, whoa. And then we stop. Maybe right? You either gloss over it and then you don't learn from your mistakes at all. But but the best growth really probably comes from what you did wrong.

And figuring out I want to do better than that in the future. I'm not going to cover it up. I'm not going to ignore it. I want to be better. Right.

And if we don't foster an environment in our families where kids can say, mom, dad, I messed up. You know, I remember saying to parents, you know, I think everyone here would want your, child to come to you if something really bad happened, right?

I'll give you an example. A lady that I know told me the story of, And this is technology related. Her son had gotten into a chat room, and there was a period of time where this relationship developed. And at least his understanding was this was a girl. Okay. And so, you know, they were kind of becoming friends.

And then, he was kind of like, I think she likes me. And, you know, things go on. Well, it gets to a point where she needed money. She needed him to send her money. This is a common internet scam. That was many, many, many, versions. Right. But so was this even a girl? Probably not. It probably was not in any way, shape or form a teenage girl that he thought it was.

But it got to a point where, they needed money or someone was going to hurt them. Okay. And and the boy was like, I don't have any money. And he he didn't have access to whatever it was, $400, $500 or whatever. And then he basically had, you know, I don't know how they got it. And then the person was saying, you know, they're going to kill me or something, right?

Anyway, this kid, instead of like, kind of walking down and like going somewhere to try to address this, which was a scam. He actually went to his parents and he said, I don't know what to do. Here's what's happening. And it was embarrassing for him to do it because he had gone this far, but his parents were able to help him.

Good. Navigate it. Right. That that only happened because they had a relationship that already was in existence where he could go and say, I've gotten myself into a bad situation here. So the reality is all of us would want our kids to come to us if they were in a situation where they'd gotten themselves in a bad spot and something bad was going to happen or whatever.

But, you know, and this is what I was telling the moms, but if your kid can't come home with a C or forget their lunch or not, remember their uniform for basketball practice after school, it if they can't come to you with those kinds of things without you having a nuclear explosion in your head, right? What are the odds that they're going to come to you when they really have a problem that that they're embarrassed about?

And so, you know, it's not easy. It's it is not an easy thing. But it's so important for for those two reasons I think among many others. But, you know, kids need to have, healthy relationships in their families first. That helps them have healthy relationships in other places because then they know what it's like, right? They know how to ask for forgiveness.

They know how to forgive. They know how to say, I did this. And the shame is not there for because they've they're dealing with it, right. They're dealing with it. So there's that. And then I just I think it really does matter that we always have parents as the gatekeepers. When it comes to technology, we recognize that almost everywhere else.

Well, that was a great point about the scams. There's so many new, really sophisticated scams coming out with similar voices. And we're going through, you know, our Soc2 compliance audit right now, which is very in-depth. And so we've all gone through security training and now any email I get, I'm like, this is this is a scam. This is a scam because they just want you to click one button.

They have all of your passwords, all your information, all the companies banking well and crazy. And you have to be taught that right to tell you that because it's not intuitively obvious. Now they know again the neuroscience. Yeah. Yeah I've I've talked to parents about this before as well. You know, you may not really understand the neuroscience behind these algorithms that are sucking your kids in to scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and interacting with people that are not good people or that are not even people now.

Right? They're they're chat bots or whatever.

You may not understand the neuroscience behind that, but these tech companies do. And they weaponize it to suck your kids in. You know, kids are a very desirable, economic demographic. They're they're a huge consumer pool. And one of the things that makes them so desirable as a consumer pool is that almost all of kids spending is completely discretionary, right?

Yeah. I have to compete for if I want if I want you to spend money on something that I have right, I have to compete with you got a car payment and a house payment and you know all of these things, right? I don't have to compete with any of that with a kid. Do they want it or not?

Right. If they want it, then, you know, a lot of them have parents that are like, sure, whatever. That's fine. And they don't know that when they click and buy that, not only are they buying something, but they're giving all kinds of data, right? There's a lot of stuff there. They're not getting compensated for. They're creating a footprint where they can be tracked.

And,

you know, whether it's whether it's getting a kid addicted to compulsive spending or it's getting a kid addicted to pornography, when you get a kid addicted to these behaviors online and get them sucked in and and connected, you've got to you've got a customer for life. Yeah, well, you can see it so easily as an adult.

Like there's podcasts I listen to a lot, and a lot of the ads I've noticed, oh, I used that vitamin. Was that just inception into my brain? Because I keep hearing it all the time that this is the one to use, or this is the supplement of of choice. It's it's fascinating seeing how that works on you, but I'm aware of it.

Children are just not. And if they're seeing this kind of content to consume and that's what they want, they see other kids happy doing it, then they're going to want to do it too. They're more susceptible. Is that

what types of technology are you now seeing? Or I know you meet with so many people all the time that are telling you most up to date and technologically advanced things with AI and maybe, you know, things we should look out for on the horizon.

Are there any examples of new risks or technologies that are out there right now?

Well, I think, you know, AI is definitely the new frontier, right? And and again, I'll go back to something I said earlier. You know,

we really want to make sure that we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. AI has tremendous, opportunities, for human flourishing.

Right. Totally. It's and for families as well. Right. I mean, you know, to the extent that we can kind of outsource, certain kinds of menial tasks or really complicated computational tasks and all kinds of different things, it's it's an unbelievable search engine. Right. One of my one of my kids, I know, you know, they've started using AI for when, you know, the kids look like they're kind of sick like this, and they'll just, you know, they'll Google.

We've all people have been doing this right for a long time. And, you know, it's if you can you have to be aware of your limitations, right? You're not a doctor. But all of us have gone online and and done a search on, you know, a symptom or something like that.

And, and it's a lot better at that in the offering I got, I got a new one.

Yep. It's so good. Well and it's only gives us a lot of a lot of things that, you know, metrics that we can use to improve our health and those kinds of things. Right.

So all of these things are great things, but there is a dark side, that is also there. And so we just can't stick our head in the sand, turn a blind eye to the perils.

Even as we do want to really take advantage of the great opportunities and, you know, you know, I know in, in the school space for quite some time, there have been, teachers have been having to deal with new kinds, cheating. Right. Plagiarism. You know, just outsourcing your homework, basically. And, and what does that do to a child?

Well, they're they're getting the grade better than ever. And they're not learning anything, right? They're they're missing out on the actual learning. And so, you know, those are some of the ways that we see it, turning up in schools. But I think, you know, a lot of the things, I think the, the chat bots are one of the things I'm, I'm really concerned about, I mentioned earlier, you know, these are designed to create emotional dependance.

There's an article I read recently that said, you know, from a chat bot, you will get empathy, but you're not going to get help. And again, this is not an actual relationship. I think that we, you know,

everybody talks about the mental health crisis, and having someone to talk to is really important. I would just say to someone, not something.

Right. And a child is not able to distinguish, between what's on the other side of that. A lot of adults aren't eager. I do think that that's where it can get very dangerous, where the lines are blurred. A this is not a real human. And it having people who are, you know, not leaving the house and having relationships in that way, it's just bad for society and the population to me, to be frank to when you have that type of is perfect.

You did mention a lot of the positives. I, I'm just curious how you're using it now in a, in a positive way, like in your life, how it's changed over the last year because it's everywhere.

It is everywhere. I imagine there are ways I'm using it that I don't even realize that's depending on AI, right? I, I do have to give a shameless plug for, for, you know, you guys know because we are definitely using your product in our office.

Thank you. And it's a great cycle. It has. Well, you know, I know when we first, started exploring it, I was like, you know what? I want to know what my staff say about this. And they. I asked them to test drive, and they were like, this is amazing. It saves us hours and hours and hours of work.

And, you know, I was a math teacher, so I remember, you know, as, as calculators have kind of evolved, right? And I haven't seen the calculator or whatever the latest calculator they're using in high schools and that sort of thing. But I know when I went back, into teaching after, my kids all got school age, the calculators were a lot more sophisticated than when I had been in school.

And when I, when I'd been teaching, you know, before the internet had come in and all of that kind of stuff. So, you know, and I remember the arguments around even just using a calculator versus doing it on pen and paper. Right. Oh for sure. And, and so, you know,

even then, this has always been, kind of the yin and yang of, technology, right?

Is you want to make sure, again, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. So on the one hand, you know, you need kids to know how to multiply and divide and add, subtract. They need to be able to do those things manually, because if they don't know how to do those things manually, they don't know how to really, when they're using a calculator to do those things and they get a really stupid answer because they, they miss kids.

Something right here. Well, you know, if you know how to do those things manually because your brain understands the concepts and the skills, then when then you catch those mistakes, right? You're like, oh, that's way out of range. I must have hit the wrong key or something like that. If you don't know the underlying principles, then you don't catch those things, right?

Yeah, but if you do, then the calculator does all the not time consuming number crunching that allows you to go do much more complex problem solving. Right. And so I think that's, that's the the same idea with AI is that you need to understand the basic principles of how things work, how people work. Those, those kinds of things.

But when, when you and how critical thinking skills. Right. Does that sound right? Does that make sense? Is that logical? Just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true. And so, you know, you you need to know how to do your own research, when you need to. And, you know, you need to know how to ask good questions.

So those kinds of things will never go out of style. And they'll they'll never really be, something that you can actually outsource safely, I think, without losing your agency.

And I think that's kind of at the center of all of this. Is that, you know, we want to maintain what it means to be human. Oh, 100%.

That's kind of the philosophy I have with our company.

So it's that I was doing so many manual, time consuming tasks in my workflow, and if I can cut that down by hours, but really, it's just a bunch of clicks on a computer, I can spend more time doing that and having meaningful conversations and, you know, moving the needle, having, you know, opportunities in new sites and being able to travel and go and meet these people in person, I think is so awesome and getting people's time back.

And so we're using it a ton in different ways. And I'm always trying to think of how can I use AI to optimize things that I don't like doing? Like, how can I save myself hours, right? I just had a really fun event.

We had a hackathon, so we had all all the team come together. We've got 18 staff now.

It's insane. That's amazing. Congratulations by the crazy. Thank you. It's so crazy. But I love our team. And we had, you know, all the developers, everybody in person. We put them all into groups mixed with like the business guys and, and marketing team and all that with the coders. And we said, okay, come up with the most efficient, tool or technology that you develop that we can use in the business.

That's going to help save us a lot of time. There's so many things that time consuming. And one of the most innovative ones was actually one that James is team built. He just met, they built. So we get feature requests all the time from Laura. From everyone from the home, from everybody who uses the root of the end users.

Yes. And then that's how it helps us develop product. But we have, like, huge fights and debates about what's next to be built because we're like, no, I talked to this person and they really want this. So we've, developed, there's a little chat bot that you can, like, answer the question. You can send questions to and then talk to a person.

But James developed an AI that would aggregate all of the requests, put them into one them. And then the highest ranked feature was at the top. Like this has been requested by 20 different people. This has been requested by ten and say, hey, this is where you should start next. This is the most interesting thing about that was an amazing, new use of it.

Yeah. Like that's crazy. That's interesting. Well, and, you know, even I talked about, you know, I know my kids, use it a lot as well. And actually, I have one of my one of my kids, my son is in the tech industry. Yes. And he he. Because he just loves this kind of stuff. He actually has incorporated it into his apartment.

So he has like, he's built all of this, stuff using AI where, you know, he gets home and he's like, you know, initiate, welcome home protocol. And all of these things happen, you know, in his apartment, you know, the curtains do this, the lights do this, the air does this. And so, you know, I think there's tremendous opportunity and tremendous creativity right there is, the potential of all of this.

And I think we just have to pay attention to, making sure, though, that we're not doing our beta testing on kids. I couldn't agree with you more

there's such a polarization divide right now with different schools, right? We're in the Texas triangle. So we're in some of the, you know, high tech areas of Texas. If we're raising our kids here, they can stay here.

But there's a lot of places in rural Texas that they might not be learning about some of this technology and might be behind, you know. So I was curious what you think about incorporating, you know, teaching about AI so that, you know, they're not behind when they get to that graduate level, and there's somebody who's way ahead, who's been in Austin or Plano or lived in a more tech forward, area.

What what do you think is important that they learn about, you know, that's that's a great question. And again, is something that is not only always has been constantly evolving, but will continue to constantly I have all right.

And so I think that it's it's something that we just have to kind of keep our finger on the pulse of what's happening in technology and make sure that we include it in the curriculum in our schools.

You know, one of the the good things is that we we tell our schools, you need to study this. You need to teach this, this, this, and that's right. And so we've done a lot around, not just the college readiness, but also the, the, career readiness, military readiness, for, you know, success doesn't look like college for every kid.

Sure. The trades and I mean, kids can make a good living doing a lot of things and never go to college, and it's just not the right fit for everyone. In fact, I think colleges are going to have to really pay attention to what is happening because I think degrees in some ways become are becoming less central to a person's ability to do tasks.

And, you know, I think about, again, I mentioned my son that is is, super techie and lives out in the Bay area. He's been doing this for a long time now. But you know, when when he has switched jobs or anything like that, they don't they they kind of screen his resume, but they don't hire based on his resume.

They bring him in and he's a coder. So they bring him in and they say, here's a problem program, a solution code, a solution in this language. And he can either do that or he can't do that. And they don't care what his degree is in. I know, you know, I had talked to him at one point because he's in the Bay area.

I'm like, what do you think about doing like a master's at Stanford or something while you're out there in the air or something?

And he's like, why would I do that? My work experience is more valuable than any degree I could ever get, and doing the degree would take away from the work experience and cost money and cost money.

And so, you know, I think that is what the future is looking more and more like for our young people. They can go online and learn anything they want on word, and they may be able to learn it in a format that works better for them, is more workable for their schedule. I mean, this is one of the exciting things about where we are for, adult learners, you know, folks that are wanting to improve their, their adults, their families, they can't quit their job and start putting food on the table so that they can go get another degree or do something like that.

But but because of all of the online opportunities, they can learn new things as they continue to do what they're doing now but improve their situation, improve their earning power and that sort of thing. So I think those are those are a lot of the things that we have to think about from an education policy standpoint, in Texas.

And I think I think it's it's great. I mean, one of the most important things and, you know, I, I loved this is one of the things that I, I think was important that I took from homeschooling my kids, was teaching my kids that you can learn your whole lifelong and finding the things that you're really interested in, you can follow that right?

And you can, navigate and set your course for what you want to learn, what you want to know, what you want to be. So, you know, that's almost limitless now. It's really exciting. And I know I never got taught personal finance in school. I never got taught about business. Even my friends who have done had gone and had MBAs are saying, okay, you have more experience in this than I do because you've literally started a business and I had to listen to a really good podcast I was with, I can't remember name, but Tony Robbins, one of his business partners, and, he started multiple businesses and been very successful.

And it was a similar, situation to what you were saying with, with Tucker not wanting to go get his MBA or another degree when it's unnecessary and it's work experience. This man said his daughter wanted to be an interior designer, and they said, okay, well, you're going to go to college for four years and have no real world experience and have to go find a job, said, here's what I want to do.

I'm going to propose. I will pay for you fully for two years. But what you need to do is direct message on Instagram, your absolute favorite designer in the world, and say, I will work for you for free for two years. And he said, and I will do that, I will pay for your life, and you can live with me, and I will pay for everything for two years, and then I will start your own business.

And what would that do? That would be amazing. 20 years old, have work experience from the best in the world and would be cheaper than college. I thought, wow, what an innovative, interesting way to look at, you know, new opportunities now. So I think obviously there's there's doctors and lawyers and positions that you need to go and get a degree that are absolutely required.

But there's so much that could be self-taught or you could learn, you know, from from doing. Yeah. So it's exciting. Yeah.

You know, that that really is true. And I think that, you know, the world is, you know, the world is my oyster for the person that understands how to teach themselves and how to go out and find what they need to know.

Right. The self-directed learner. I guess maybe that's the that's the the term I was trying to, to find again, that self-directed learner. That was that was a that's a big theme for a lot of, folks at home school, that they're teaching their kids that. Right. And, I think that's important. That goes back to also some of those core principles about just learning how to be a self-governing person, right?

And making good decisions. You know, all of those all of those things are important. And it matters that parents are the ones that are kind of helping their kids navigate those, those pathways as they grow up.

So as a former educator and counselor and seeing all this new tech and what parents are dealing with now, what types of things would you recommend they do to keep kids, you know, able to share with them? And, and out of some of these dangerous situations,

you know, I've, I've thought a lot of about those kinds of things.

And I'm thinking about it, you know, as I watch my kids raise their little ones. Right. And you know, that my oldest grandchild is four and a half now, and I just got my sixth one. That's amazing. Congratulate. But they're all they're all little bitty. And, you know, I, I look at them and I will tell you, as a grandmother, the thing that makes me happiest when I watch my kids and my grandkids is that I'm, I look at my grandkids, they're happy.

And why are they happy? I think they're happy because they feel safe. They don't know that they couldn't be safe. That doesn't mean they don't fall off the bed and hurt themselves or, you know, fall off their bike and skin their knee or whatever. I mean, things happen or their their brother hits on what I mean, things happen, right?

But for the most part, they're operating out of safety and security and love. Right? Not all kids get that. And I realize that. So it's it's just a gift to be able to watch my, my babies, my little ones. And growing up in an environment like that. But even so, with I think my kids are doing a great job parenting.

But even with that, all of the best intentions there are going to be things that happen, that are less than desirable. And so you always have to be prepared for those things.

But I actually, I, I kind of made this little list for myself. If you, if you don't mind me looking at I love that. But, but, you know, one of the things I thought about is when one of the most likely ways for a kid to die and a minor to die and adolescent to die is in a car accident.

For a lot of different reasons. Right. But most of us, don't say my kid's not ever going to be behind the wheel of the car, right? Most of us do our very best to teach our kids to to drive. We teach them to be responsible. We teach them you don't drink and get behind the wheel of a car.

You don't get in a car with someone who's been drinking. You don't drive at two in the morning when the rest of the people that are on the road probably have been drinking. I mean, there are things we teach our kids so they can do this dangerous thing that also has a lot of upside for them in a safe way, in a responsible way.

Right. So I think to me that's an analogy for what we have to think about when we're teaching our kids about technology. Tremendous opportunity, tremendous upsides. But also some dark sides and things they've got to to think about. And we also have to teach them to think well about things that don't exist yet. Right. So so some of the things that, you know, I,

I think it's important for parents to remember is, number one, pay attention to your kids tech use qualitatively and quantitatively.

It is not healthy for your kid to be on their device all the time. You know, Laura, we didn't talk about this, but one of the the laws that just went into effect in Texas is no cell phones at schools. Right. And I and I have heard reports from, administrators and teachers that for the first time in years, when they walk in the cafeteria, they hear laughter, and kids are bring in board games to lunch.

Wow. And they're talking and they're, they're playing and they're they're learning each other's names, you know, things like that. They're building real relationships. They used to be sitting on their phones. You know, no one really was exactly sure how this would play out, you know, would there be like this mass rebellion or whatever? Because I have to have my phone, you know.

But but the reality is, is that we're getting back to a better, I think, a better social normal with our kids by getting these out of, replacing. They take the place of something. They're not just an add on, they're replacing real relationships. And so I think that's something parents really need to pay attention to their kids.

The, the types of things you're using, the parental consent, even if there is something that involves your kid that doesn't legally require parental consent, you want to you're the parent, right? You're the parent. So that would be one thing. Another thing that, you know, I think kind of started I remember it kind of starting when I was a parent of young kids myself.

But it's really easy to use tech as a babysitter. And one of the things we've kind of talked about is, I mean, you wouldn't hire a stranger to babysit your kid. You need to understand that that using tech to babysit your kid is not safe. You don't know what's going to come in. So. So don't use tech as a babysitter.

It could be a pedophile. Yeah. And that's that's literally true. And so as easy as it is to just hand on the device, you can do better, right? I mean, even playing music or something like that. Right. There's a lot of benefits to kids brains listening to good music and that sort of thing. And there's a lot of educational music.

I mean, there are other things you can do go outside and play. You know, there's a lot you can do. Other than using tech as a babysitter. And it's not it really is not a safe bet for a babysitter. Totally. Model. Good character. And, good decision making for your kids. Teach. You teach them that.

You teach them how to make good decisions. You teach them what is good and what is not good. And, you know, like I've heard it said, you know, character is more often caught than taught, so you do need to say it to your kids, but you need to model it. They can't. Right? They catch from you your life.

And it's such an opportunity, and it's one of the best ways you can influence your kids. It's a real legacy, you know, just the life you live is the best thing you can give your kids. Make it the best. I, I talked a lot about this, but, you know, really focus on having genuinely healthy relationships in your family and with your kids.

Learn how to say, I'm sorry, learn how to, learn how to have boundaries, learn how to have a healthy, you know, and how to have a healthy. Yes. You know, I, I remember a lady taught me a long time ago, lady that went to my church, that was a real role model for me as a mom.

But she said, you know, you're you get asked to do things all the time. And a lot of the moms that might be listening, or, or dads, have kids. But, you know, if you're the kind of person that likes to get things done, people will notice that and they'll ask you to do things. And I mean, when you ask a person that's good at getting things done to get things done right, and they're the busiest people, and a lot of times we can out of guilt, we just keep saying yes and yes and yes.

And I remember a dear lady who's had such a powerful impact on my life. She said, Angela, don't ever forget the every yes is a no. In every no is a yes. Because when you say yes to something, it you cannot change the fact that now you'll have to say no to other things, and it may be to your kids, or your husband or your close friends or your, you know, other things that really it should be your priority.

So when you say yes to say to something, say yes on purpose, not out of guilt because it's totally it's what you should do, right? And every time you say no to something, you're also saying yes to other things. So you don't you can't. It's not so easy. Like, oh, I, I said yes, and then I get rid of the guilt.

When you said yes, you said no to other things.

So don't be afraid to say no when it's the healthy thing to do. Right. That's great advice. I'm trying to do it more because you can't do everything. No, and especially as a mom, you have other responsibilities. So you do. You have a lot of things you have to do.

And I guess, you know, the the other thing and we talked about this too, but be a parent who your child can come to, you know, when they failed and they still know you love them. And even though you don't approve of the behavior and the decision or whatever you're going to, you're going to walk with them into the healthiest next step and that they can count on you for that.

So, you know, I think it is probably harder to parent today than it ever has been, but kids have always been in the crosshairs, as kind of the low hanging fruit for, people who want to exploit, you know, there have always been predators in the jungle. And, you know, as parents, though, we're the grownups.

So be the parent and love your kid, be their safe place where they can can have standards. They can do it, and they'll want to do it. You know, if you're modeling that for them and love them when they make mistakes. Yeah, it was amazing. Wise words of wisdom here. And, thank you so much for coming on the show and talking about all these things.

I know you're one of the the funnest people to sit down and talk to. If you're I always would see people come in, you know, from different companies and groups and they always would say, wow, she's so fun to talk to. And she knows so much about so many different subjects. And I think this was a really great peek into all the wisdom you have today.

So thank you. Thank you Laura. Well, you're you're a fun person to talk to eggs. And I love watching you operate in your element here and just wish you the best success. And, I think you're right where you're supposed to be. And it's fun to watch you just get better and better and better at being you.

You're so kind now. How can people keep up with everything that you're doing? I know you have a newsletter and some other things. Do you have any other shout outs? Yeah, they can follow. Follow me on social media or media. Angela Paxson talks, on my social media and, Angela Pax intercom is my website. People can go there and sign up for the newsletter and and everything, but I'd love to have people join us.

And, you know another thing I'm going to I'm working on right now is I'm actually working on a documentary podcast project myself. Cool. Aimed at parents and helping to equip and educate, parents so that they can raise their kids in this really difficult, environment that is often, you know, predatory for their children. And it's it's called the cost of innocence.

Okay. How big tech, big pharma and big others are targeting our kids for profit. So I know a lot of parents are becoming more and more aware of how many, forces there are that are looking at their kids, as just a, you know, a money machine and sure don't really care what happens to the kid. The kid is expendable.

It's just a way to make some money in the short term. And so, you know, again, parents are the ones who are invested in their children for the long run. And so I think it's really, really important that parents are engaged. And so I want to help educate, educate parents, encourage them, but equip them with practical tools so that they can make good decisions as parents to help their kids make good decisions as they grow up.

Amazing. And when and where can people find the cost? Well, they can actually go online and, you know, just do a search on Cost of Innocence. Angela Paxton but we're in the process right now with, production and, we're still doing interviews and that sort of thing, but it's going to be a great, podcast again, really hoping to, help parents have what they need, to raise their kids.

Awesome. Well, I can't wait to watch it. Thank you so much. Thank you.

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