#38 - Senator Angela Paxton: AI and Kids Online. Safety and Learning

Welcome back to Bills and Business, the show where we explore the intersection of policy and technology. I'm your host, Laura Davis, co-founder of USLedge. And today we're joined by someone I know really well, Senator Angela Paxton. She represents around a million people in Senate District eight, in the state of Texas. And she's not just a leader on issues like education, protection of children, and innovation.

She's also my former boss. She's got a background as an educator and has a deep interest in our technology, shaping our future. She's uniquely positioned to share her wisdom today. We're catching her in the middle of a special legislative session in Texas. So we're especially grateful she's taking time to talk with us. Enjoy the show.

When did you start teaching or what did you take a break at all?

But when you were with the little ones, so, you know, I, I majored in mathematical science, math and science. I went back to school, got my master's in education, and then got certified to teach. Right. And then I started teaching, kind of right off the bat then before we had kids or anything, can finish law school, we moved back to Texas.

And then I was, I was back to teaching and, then we, I  got pregnant with Tucker, our oldest, and I finished out that school year and then stayed home with the kids. And so we were actually homeschooled up until kind of middle elementary, with him. And then, he went back to school, and then the next one went back to school,

and I was home school and the little ones.

And then when the youngest one got to second grade, I think, I went back to teach, so. Okay. Yeah. So Tucker was 14, so I guess it, I kind of took a 14 year break from, I guess, professional teaching, but I kept teaching, at home with my kids. So it's been actually an interesting background for what I do legislatively now because I'm, as an educator.

Right. And a school counselor. I taught and also was a parent in all of those settings in a private school setting, in a homeschool setting, and in public schools. Oh, yeah. So so I get how different things work for different families and different kids in different families, and sometimes at different points in life. Right. And so, you know, what I love about Texas is no matter what you're after, you can find it here.

And I think we've done a lot of great things, to help make our public schools better, to help give homeschool families the support that they need and, and better options. And now with, of course, with school choice, giving more families the opportunity to do private schools if they're interested in that. And of course, charter schools are kind of in that sort of a hybrid right between public and and private as far as experience goes.

But but of course, it's so much more affordable than for a, for family. But it's going to really equalize things. And I think it's a, it's a great example of a rising tide lifts all boats. And it's going to be it's going to be great for families. It's going to be great for kids student achievement. And that means since children are literally the future, that means a better Texas and a better future Texas.

Well, I think you're so uniquely positioned with your background, like you said, to to handle education issues, having literally taught in every single type of education space. And then specifically with protecting children online, which is what we got to work together on, which was some of my favorite work I've ever done.

What initially kind of got you excited to help in that space and even know that that was a space that was needed.

You know, things have changed a lot with technology over the years. So when did you start to realize that kind of online safety for children was important?

Well, I think it started when I was kind of in that break of being home with my kids, between my, having taught being home with kids. And then I went back to teaching during that time when I was home with my kids, and, and homeschooling, the internet had come in.

And so, you know, I, I remember,

seeing things as the internet was kind of everybody was figuring it out. Right. And I remember, realizing I remember my son when he was ten years old, calling from the other room and going, mom, mom and I remember walking into, the room where we had a little, you know, desktop computer, a lot bigger and bulkier than the kind of things that we all have now that I mean, now we have these things in our pockets right?

Yeah. But it was in in the office. It was where I could see things. He and a friend were playing, and I walked in and his friend had said, hey, type this. And he did. And there were pictures, just scrolling and he couldn't make it stop. And, and he called to me. Now that was eye opening to me on, on many, many levels.

But, you know, the, the average age of first exposure for children to porn, for quite some time has been around the age of ten.

He was ten. Oh, wow. Which was way too early. I, I feel like it's getting earlier, though. Well, it is in the last in the last three years, I have seen studies that indicate that that that the, that the age has dropped to eight as the average age of first exposure.

And you know what that means. The average means that there are kids younger than that that are seeing porn for the first time. And of course, you know,

porn is just one element of the landscape of this, digital jungle that kids really are growing up in today. And just like the real jungle, jungles don't naturally grow fences or guardrails or warning signs.

And so that's why I think all of this is so important. So I had an awareness of it as a parent, but when I was teaching and I was I was watching all of this kind of evolve, in the classroom. And then, of course, I moved into a position as a guidance counselor, and I was constantly working with with the teachers about how we use this in good ways and not bad ways, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Regarding technology, in the classroom that I was also dealing with, parents and kids and social media came in during that period of time. So I had a lot of awareness just from real life. So when I came into the legislature and some of these ideas started popping up, like, what? What can we do about this?

And parents were coming to me and saying, you know what? There need to be some, there need to be some legal frameworks around some of these things. You know, we would love in a perfect world, everyone self-regulate, right? Every. Well, in fact, art form of government is built on the concept of self-governance, right at the individual level that that each of us is operating in a way that that has integrity, that, exhibits moral leadership.

Right. But we also know that whenever you have a lot of people, whenever you have a lot of kids, things are going to go wrong and people are going to make bad choices. Sometimes they make bad choices by accident. Sometimes they do it very deliberately. But we we need to, pay attention to this, as legislators. And the reason is because our kids are counting on us to do that like we do in the real world

all the time.

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And kids can't self-govern the way that an adult can. So that's what I, you know, learn so much about with you as the brain science behind what pornography actually does to the brain, because at first it's kind of like a moral, piece. You're like, everybody knows that children's pornography is wrong. I think most people agree with that.

But when you actually go into the brain science, you know, it's bad for adults for their, for their brain, but obviously it's, that's their individual choice over 18. But when you look at what it does to the child's development and all of that, and, you know, we were in a time where we didn't have access, I was about 16 before, we had a desktop computer at home.

And, had suspicions that my brother was looking at bad things as the older sister and he turns out he wasn't. I think I told you this silly story before, but I had told my parents he's doing bad stuff on that computer. You got to watch him. And my mom went into his computer one day and went into the photo folder, and there were a thousand pictures labeled cats, you know, cat.

And she went, Lori, you got to leave the room. I don't know what's in here. She opened it. It's thousands of pictures of kittens. So I'm sorry, Ryan, sorry about your bubble. They're down in here. Right. Well, they're hilarious and sorry right out of you, but, to this day, I still get him cat stuff, but it shows that we were aware of things like that.

But at that time, you know, it was still images. It wasn't the same as now we're knowing, which is, you know, there's communication in these different portals online leading to trafficking and grooming and, but really specifically what it does to the human brain to see all the super natural stimulus that they never would have gotten in any existing reality.

Exactly. That could never happen. That's exactly right. And and, you know, to your point of these were just still images or

even if they're, they're videos, movies, right now, what we're talking about are things that adapt to your preferences. Yeah. And so, you know, you bring up the brain science, which I think is an important thing for for people to pay attention to.

And we we have the ability we know a lot more about the brain than we ever have. And we understand a lot more about how the brain develops, particularly with children and so one of the things that we know from looking at how addiction is treated in adults, whether it's an addictive, behavior like porn use, if it is an addictive substance, like an, you know, an illegal drug or alcohol or tobacco, these things are addictive in different ways.

But addiction is addiction to the brain. Addiction work has a mechanism. And what happens is something. And a novel stimulus, triggers a release of dopamine. And it turns out, a lot of experts will say it this way. What you're really addicted to isn't the substance or the behavior. What you're really addicted to is the dopamine hit.

And so for different people that has different flavors. But but what it does is it rewires the brain. And so folks that treat adults with addictions, there are ways to kind of go back to like rewire the rewiring so that you can kind of get back to what was normal. Right? When you talk about a child, a child's brain is in the process of wiring.

So what's happening with the child when they are, exposed to, to things that are addictive algorithms, which is common in and probably typical there are, you know, these these things are addictive by design. So what you're ending up with is these kids don't even get to start out with a normal brain. So before they ever hit, you know, kind of adulthood, they are they have been wired differently.

And that brings up a lot of interesting implications as far as treatment goes. Because what do you do then? You're not you're not getting back to normal. This this was never normal for them. And and it you know, there's a lot there that you can kind of go on and on forever with. But it really does matter for a child's future that we do the things so they can have a healthy upbringing.

Right. And they can develop healthy emotional habits, mental habits, physical habits, spiritual habits, all of those things matter for a kid to have a healthy future. And so, yes, it really does does matter that we take care of kids. We've always known that. And there are a lot of things we do in, you know, the physical world.

And some of the legislation that I've carried has kind of been, around that direction that, you know, something like age gating, for example, or age verification, a couple of bills that, I've carried are in that direction. And, you know, you, you and I've worked on those, some of those together. And we've certainly talked about a lot of them together.

But, the idea that in the real world, a kid can't buy age restricted products, things we, we as a society have decided this is not good for kids. This is not healthy for kids. For whatever reason, alcohol, tobacco, just as starters. Pornography, right? A kid can't go in. It used to be it was a magazine, right?

It was a physical product. But. But you had to show an ID, and the person at the at the cash register had to check that ID, verify. And if they and if they didn't do that or they ignored what the age was on the ID, there were consequences for the vendor. Right? So these are the you know, kids have always had fake IDs and that kind of stuff.

We know that. But but that's a separate problem for the for the vast majority. This really does go a long way in preventing kids from being exposed to harmful substances. Or behaviors. So in the real world we do that and and people know it works. It creates transparency and it creates accountability. And those two things, you know, the thing about transparency is most of us, whether you're an adult or whether you're a little kid, most of us act better when we know people are watching.

Right. Sure. Even even a little kid knows that. So transparency goes a long way to helping us all learn how to self-govern. Right. And we do have to teach kids how to self-govern. That's why these things are important. They help us give our kids ways to do that. But

but a lot of this legislation that I've worked on has just extended those kinds of protections into the digital space.

So House Bill 1181, which went all the way to the Supreme Court, that was our bill. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about that. I am very excited that that passed and was flying success and was found that it was absolutely true and upheld. I hear you actually there in the Supreme Court that that how was that?

It was really interesting. You know, to get to be in, the room for oral arguments around a Supreme Court case is it's it's an amazing experience. And it's for your bill. Yeah. For your own bill. That's crazy. So, you know, one of the things that I felt, was very encouraging as I was there is all nine justices, and, you know, the justices kind of run the gamut from more liberal to more conservative.

Sure. Some of them, you never know exactly where they're going to land, but but, you know, as I was listening to their questions of, both parties, both, you know, counsel of both parties, state of Texas. And then, what was it? It was, you know, some kind of free speech, kind of a thing that represents the porn industry.

Okay. And we're talking about for kids, that's the thing for Congress. And this was passed completely, you know, almost unanimously, I think there was only one vote in the House that was against it. And it was completely bipartisan. Yeah. So I was I think that's really the main industry that would be opposing it. Right, right. And

the Free Speech Coalition, I think that that was, the, the party.

So, anyway, you know, that was their argument was this was restricting free speech and that I guess that requiring age verification would have a chilling effect on adults using this. And I and, you know, of course, the argument is we already do this. And, I mean, if you went to buy physical pornography, which I guess most people don't do anymore, but it that was all there was for a long time.

Did that have a chilling effect? Well, maybe it it maybe somebody doesn't want to go in and say I want to buy this, but it doesn't prevent them from doing what they want to do. Now I will tell you one of the things about online pornography, well, about addiction in general, they talk about the three A's of addiction, accessibility, affordability and anonymity.

So, so those three things together really do, push things toward being more addictive, in their, in their nature. Right. And so, you know, no doubt it was true that, you know, anonymity, I, I would imagine has,

an a word with regard to online porn, right? No one knows. I think of a phone immediately when I think of that.

That's all those things. Everybody has a phone. Yep. Most people in the country, including kids, kids have phones now, so it's very easily accessible. And you're anonymous when you're online and you're searching for things where you think you are anyway. Yeah, we're definitely not. We can go into that to the data privacy side. It's still a whole other thing.

Oh yeah, they're tracking. But but with all of that said, you know, the argument was this is infringing on adults, right. But the argument of the state of Texas was this is a common sense, time tested approach in the physical world for protecting kids from this very type of content, which has been demonstrated to be harmful to them.

It's defined in Texas law as harmful material, right? That's what it's called. Pornography is called harmful material because it is harmful for kids. So anyway, listening to the justices, ask questions of both, you know, both, sets of attorneys there, you could tell that everybody was pretty on board with, you know, it makes sense to protect kids.

The question is the mechanism for doing it right. And so, you know, I felt good about that. The, the concept of the law was going to be upheld. But, you know, were they going to let it be a verification? So of course. And, I guess it was in June, the, the, the, ruling came down and we were really pleased.

You know, they upheld the case. The the other thing that's important about that is when the Supreme Court rules on any issue, if they if they if they, support it, it encourages more of that from the states. Right, right. If they if they shut it down then it has a chilling effect. Right on that same kind of legislation from the state.

So that was one of the things that was really, I think in a deeper way than just the specific law that was upheld there. I think that's really important is because it indicated from the Supreme Court that they recognize that states have a responsibility and a duty to protect kids, and that this makes sense.

And there's so many parents that I met with constituents of yours that and around the country, in the state that were coming in and saying, this happened to my kid.

And I never expected that. And I think it's the parents that aren't necessarily watching or don't even know about it. So it's kind of protecting those people. But one thing that really got me when I was watching all the news around it was that it was really focused on the age verification piece, which is great, and this model legislation now.

But the piece that, you know, was unique, that you added was the warning sign that the pornography sites should disclose. I think there's a lot of people who don't know the damage it's doing, even as an adult, and having that medical health warning and an option to click a link for addiction, that's like a free option to help, that I think just makes a lot of sense to know.

Maybe it is bad. They have that on gambling sites. They have that on cigarets, on smoking, like a having a warning to alert people. I think that was a really unique way of, of adding that piece.

Well, and, and I don't know if you remember, the, you know, you were working in my office when we, when we came up with the idea.

I think you're the one that maybe even found the drug legislation from it was it was, it was built around a law that had been passed in Louisiana, and I remember, you know, we had talked as an office about as I just told everyone on staff, you know, if if you see anything, if you have ideas or we come across things that will help protect kids online, I want to know about them.

And you brought this idea to me and I'm like, that is a great idea. We should do this. And so we started moving in that direction.

But we also talked about what would make it better. And part of what we felt like would make the the law even more effective then the, the age verification, piece of it was a health warning, because this material is addictive.

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So to put a health warning on, the websites that the, the porn sites, in addition to requiring age verification to enter the portal, that they would also, display that warning and an addiction hotline. Right. So for help because we also know that lots and lots of people who are using porn secretly, they hate themselves for it.

Sure they are. They're hiding it. They don't want anyone to know, and they can't stop because they're addicted. And so it would also maybe give someone a way out somewhere to go. Unfortunately, the court had struck that part, both of those parts out. So that was not included in the Supreme Court decision because it wasn't part of the the law that went, to the Supreme Court.

That's that's a place that we have continued to talk, though, in my office, about finding a way to get back. Get back to that because, you know, it's.

Part of this bill is about, stopping certain kinds of things from happening, kids accessing this kind of material. But we also want to do something to help people who are struggling, who want to make a difference. So, you know, that's something we haven't quit on. And we've had multiple conversations, even with, you know,

the government relations folks over and, the lawyers in the, in the AG's office who, were very instrumental in this particular case being at the Supreme Court.

So we're still working on how we can go in that direction, because it's not enough to stop the bad. You have to help, support the good for sure.

So what other things have been working on from this last legislative session that are in this space now, because you're really a figurehead in the area of protecting kids?

Well, you know, you mentioned, a minute ago, Laura, about, how a lot of parents are just kind of not aware.

Right. You know, in my opinion, as, as, school counselor, as I was working with parents, you

know, one of the things I saw all the time, parents would come to me and they're like, we don't know what to do about this or this or this, right. And part of the reason they were come to me was I was the counselor at the school, but I was also a parent, and for the most part, my my kids were now older than most of the parents that I was working with.

So, you know, that kind of gave me, sort of a platform to speak to them as this person to person, mom to mom about, you know, this is something lots of kids go through. You might not know that with your oldest child, right? If you might just think, oh my gosh, this is the end of the world.

And it might be something that's actually really common or whatever. So I could kind of talk about things from that standpoint. But but a lot of what I was talking to parents about were things that none of us had been parented through ourselves. So you don't always even know what to look for. I think most parents now realize there's a lot out there, and I don't know what all of it is.

Right? So I think one of the important things that we did this last session was legislation to make sure that parents are put in a place where they really legally become the gatekeepers of their children's digital operations, and that was in the form of the App Store Accountability Act. It's a great bill. What it basically requires is that before a kid can a minor can download an app, or purchase an app, their parents have to give consent.

Right? So that's that's the bill in a nutshell. I think it's a very powerful tool, for parents because now any decision that their kid is making, is going to have to come through them. Right? So the app stores already know. They know how old every user is when you, when you, set up a new phone, a new device, an iPad or a laptop or whatever, all of the things that you have to go in and create the account, it's there your age.

Right. And so they know whether the user is a minor or an adult. And, you know, it makes sense to do this at the App Store level, not the the individual developer, the developer level. Doing it at the App Store level creates more continuity and uniformity in the way things are done. It requires age ratings and descriptions of, the apps so that parents can read.

What does this app do, you know, are the apps doing that yet or. That's a great oh, that's a great question. Some some have already been proactively doing that. And in fact, it was interesting. Some of the tech companies that were opposed to the bill came in and said, we don't need a law to do this.

We're already doing this. Okay. Interestingly enough, though,

there was also testimony from lots and lots of parents and users of different apps that came in and said, yeah, some some of these, developers do provide this kind of information. But what we realized that was that a lot of the descriptions were incredibly misleading, and the age ratings were in some, in some cases, just downright thoughts.

Inappropriate. I mean, there were there were, examples of parents who came in and talked about things that they went in and they were just, you know, they're being responsible for their kids. And they they would go in and kind of peruse and see what kind of things were on their phones or on their on their, tablets.

And they would find, you know, this app was 12 and it was, you know, designated for 12 and under. And, you know, it had a description about, you know, it's like you can make cartoons and stuff like that. And they go into it. And the 12 and under included, nude depictions and, you know, things like that.

I think most people would say, and certainly most parents, would say that they don't want 12 and under, they don't consider nude images appropriate for 12 and under. So what this is going to do, going back to, those kind of two pieces of transparency and accountability, the App Store ability, the App Store Accountability Act is going to give parents like a direct line of sight, into what their kids are doing, and they get to decide if that's good for their kid or not.

And if they say yes, and then they realize that this app has been deceptive in its description or inaccurate in its description, they have the ability to, through the, Deceptive Trade Practices Act to hold these, developers and app stores, accountable.

the thing that stood out to me with the App Store accountability Act of somebody that had, it was I think it was one of the very many stakeholders, that I was chatting with through the years when I was working with you.

And they said something that was really crazy with an app that was some apps have communication mechanisms where you can have strangers contact your kid, and it's happening more and more on, like, very innocent seeming gains. So

do you think there's even something that people can do other than just warn parents and educate them on what's going on?

Because how do you stop a chat room in a game? And that seems where, you know, children are getting groomed and trafficked. Is there anything that can be done on the legislative level for that?

Well, I think that, you know, we're we're figuring a lot of this out in real time, right? Because the technology is evolving in real time.

So, yes, you know, one of the one of the things that even with the age verification, Bill, that now has, you know, survived and thrived through Supreme Court street scrutiny, you know, there are there are, platforms that kids can go to to be coached on how to circumvent age verification. Sure. So, sure. You know, as soon as you fix one thing,

bad actors figure out a way to lure kids back, right?

To lure kids back. So, you know, as you were, as you were talking about, you know, an innocent seeming, application, a game or something like that. Where these evil people are, are grooming children and exploiting children, and, you know, that happens in the real world, too. And if you think about this, it is one of the reasons that you have pedophiles and sex offenders, who haven't gotten caught yet that embed themselves in places where, I mean, they're predators and they they go where the hunting is, they go where there is prey.

And, you know, I remember this, when my kids were little, we would go to Chuck E cheese, meet a friend. I'd meet a friend at Chuck E cheese. Kids would all play. And I remember from time to time I, you would kind of notice someone that was there. And it's like, why is a grown man by himself at Chuck E cheese on a Thursday at lunch?

That doesn't make sense. That's it. And, you know, I usually keep an eye on someone like that. Right? But but it happens in the digital space as well. And so, you know, I do I do know this we can pass laws all day long, but if we don't equip and educate parents, they really are the first and the last line of defense for their own children.

And they're it. It's why it's so important that as legislators, we always make sure that parents have all the tools, and that we're not keeping parents from having tools that they need. Because at the end of the day, again, in a, in a country that's founded on self-governance, in a family that looks like parents, looking out for their kids and, and doing their best to be aware and to, do the things that they need to do, which is incredibly challenging.

I think about it every day because now I have six little grandkids, right, that are four and under. And, you know, my kids are 26 to 32. They weren't parented through a lot of these things, right? They they kind of were just a little bit older than, all of this stuff kind of coming in. Right. And so a lot of it, they've kind of had to figure out themselves.

And, you know, I'm proud of my kids. My kids have pretty good North Stars. But, you know, we all make mistakes. And all you can really do is learn from a mistake. But there are some mistakes that are really hard to come back from. For example, you know, if you've got, now we're talking about chat bots that develop intimate relationships and, and are designed to create emotional dependency.

That's one thing when it's an adult, but that's another thing when it's a kid. And there are already reports, numerous reports of these kinds of things resulting in a suicide. And parents find after the fact that this is the result of technology, that they're that their kid was using. And so I think one of the things, one of the principles we always have to remember, you can't make a rule for everything as soon as you make if it's all about rules, then someone will find a way around the rules.

I think it's why we have to be thinking in terms of principles. And and I think three of those principles are transparency and accountability and parental consent.

I think the transparency piece really sticks to me for how I know Eric and I have talked about what we'll do with our kids and how we'll handle things. And I think having an open dialog with the kids is probably the most important thing, because there's going to be things that come up as technology evolves, like you've said, that are completely new, that we've never faced, you know, where we don't know some of the new slang and the new words out there.

We're like, so behind. So of course we're not going to know about some of these, these apps and things and even just new technology that will come out, but just having an open dialog conversation where they can talk to you and say, hey, this is happening and not be ashamed of it, I think is so big because, yeah, you are hearing about suicides and, and mental health issues with, with especially young girls and social media.

There's so many issues and I think everybody's aware of it. But having a conversation, making it public, talking about it with parents and in schools, and allowing the kids to just say something is wrong here and talk to you about it. I think it's probably the best thing people can do. It's it's really important. And it's not easy.

It's not easy. But I think that's important that what you're talking about as far as an open dialog and relationship with your children, it's important in so many ways. But for purposes of what we're talking about, I think,

I think in particularly two ways, you know, one is that number one, you need to have a real relationship with your child so that your child knows the difference between a real relationship and a counterfeit or unhealthy relationship.

You need to have a healthy relationship with your child, for that reason. Right. But but the second is you do have to, and this is, this is really hard and it is really hard, because, you know, as parents, we are tasked with teaching our kids. Right? And wrong. And, and part of that is accountability when they make bad choices.

Right. But but you really do have to think about how to navigate that in a healthy way. And, and not all of us had that modeled for us. So, you know, I'm thankful that there are a lot of resources for parents, on on this topic, which is really not about technology. It's about relationships, but it applies everywhere.

Again, back to principles, right? But, you know, when I was, a school counselor, I used to do, a quarterly meeting for moms, and we would talk about different parenting topics. And I remember addressing this in particular, and I said, you know, you you do want to teach your kids to learn from their mistakes, right? And and everyone makes mistakes.

Everyone has failures.

And if you're an adult, you know, this really the things you have learned the best, you probably learn because you screwed up right. It's our mistakes that we really go, whoa. And then we stop. Maybe right? You either gloss over it and then you don't learn from your mistakes at all. But but the best growth really probably comes from what you did wrong.

And figuring out I want to do better than that in the future. I'm not going to cover it up. I'm not going to ignore it. I want to be better. Right.

And if we don't foster an environment in our families where kids can say, mom, dad, I messed up. You know, I remember saying to parents, you know, I think everyone here would want your, child to come to you if something really bad happened, right?

I'll give you an example. A lady that I know told me the story of, And this is technology related. Her son had gotten into a chat room, and there was a period of time where this relationship developed. And at least his understanding was this was a girl. Okay. And so, you know, they were kind of becoming friends.

And then, he was kind of like, I think she likes me. And, you know, things go on. Well, it gets to a point where she needed money. She needed him to send her money. This is a common internet scam. That was many, many, many, versions. Right. But so was this even a girl? Probably not. It probably was not in any way, shape or form a teenage girl that he thought it was.

But it got to a point where, they needed money or someone was going to hurt them. Okay. And and the boy was like, I don't have any money. And he he didn't have access to whatever it was, $400, $500 or whatever. And then he basically had, you know, I don't know how they got it. And then the person was saying, you know, they're going to kill me or something, right?

Anyway, this kid, instead of like, kind of walking down and like going somewhere to try to address this, which was a scam. He actually went to his parents and he said, I don't know what to do. Here's what's happening. And it was embarrassing for him to do it because he had gone this far, but his parents were able to help him.

Good. Navigate it. Right. That that only happened because they had a relationship that already was in existence where he could go and say, I've gotten myself into a bad situation here. So the reality is all of us would want our kids to come to us if they were in a situation where they'd gotten themselves in a bad spot and something bad was going to happen or whatever.

But, you know, and this is what I was telling the moms, but if your kid can't come home with a C or forget their lunch or not, remember their uniform for basketball practice after school, it if they can't come to you with those kinds of things without you having a nuclear explosion in your head, right? What are the odds that they're going to come to you when they really have a problem that that they're embarrassed about?

And so, you know, it's not easy. It's it is not an easy thing. But it's so important for for those two reasons I think among many others. But, you know, kids need to have, healthy relationships in their families first. That helps them have healthy relationships in other places because then they know what it's like, right? They know how to ask for forgiveness.

They know how to forgive. They know how to say, I did this. And the shame is not there for because they've they're dealing with it, right. They're dealing with it. So there's that. And then I just I think it really does matter that we always have parents as the gatekeepers. When it comes to technology, we recognize that almost everywhere else.

Well, that was a great point about the scams. There's so many new, really sophisticated scams coming out with similar voices. And we're going through, you know, our Soc2 compliance audit right now, which is very in-depth. And so we've all gone through security training and now any email I get, I'm like, this is this is a scam. This is a scam because they just want you to click one button.

They have all of your passwords, all your information, all the companies banking well and crazy. And you have to be taught that right to tell you that because it's not intuitively obvious. Now they know again the neuroscience. Yeah. Yeah I've I've talked to parents about this before as well. You know, you may not really understand the neuroscience behind these algorithms that are sucking your kids in to scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and interacting with people that are not good people or that are not even people now.

Right? They're they're chat bots or whatever.

You may not understand the neuroscience behind that, but these tech companies do. And they weaponize it to suck your kids in. You know, kids are a very desirable, economic demographic. They're they're a huge consumer pool. And one of the things that makes them so desirable as a consumer pool is that almost all of kids spending is completely discretionary, right?

Yeah. I have to compete for if I want if I want you to spend money on something that I have right, I have to compete with you got a car payment and a house payment and you know all of these things, right? I don't have to compete with any of that with a kid. Do they want it or not?

Right. If they want it, then, you know, a lot of them have parents that are like, sure, whatever. That's fine. And they don't know that when they click and buy that, not only are they buying something, but they're giving all kinds of data, right? There's a lot of stuff there. They're not getting compensated for. They're creating a footprint where they can be tracked.

And,

you know, whether it's whether it's getting a kid addicted to compulsive spending or it's getting a kid addicted to pornography, when you get a kid addicted to these behaviors online and get them sucked in and and connected, you've got to you've got a customer for life. Yeah, well, you can see it so easily as an adult.

Like there's podcasts I listen to a lot, and a lot of the ads I've noticed, oh, I used that vitamin. Was that just inception into my brain? Because I keep hearing it all the time that this is the one to use, or this is the supplement of of choice. It's it's fascinating seeing how that works on you, but I'm aware of it.

Children are just not. And if they're seeing this kind of content to consume and that's what they want, they see other kids happy doing it, then they're going to want to do it too. They're more susceptible. Is that

what types of technology are you now seeing? Or I know you meet with so many people all the time that are telling you most up to date and technologically advanced things with AI and maybe, you know, things we should look out for on the horizon.

Are there any examples of new risks or technologies that are out there right now?

Well, I think, you know, AI is definitely the new frontier, right? And and again, I'll go back to something I said earlier. You know,

we really want to make sure that we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. AI has tremendous, opportunities, for human flourishing.

Right. Totally. It's and for families as well. Right. I mean, you know, to the extent that we can kind of outsource, certain kinds of menial tasks or really complicated computational tasks and all kinds of different things, it's it's an unbelievable search engine. Right. One of my one of my kids, I know, you know, they've started using AI for when, you know, the kids look like they're kind of sick like this, and they'll just, you know, they'll Google.

We've all people have been doing this right for a long time. And, you know, it's if you can you have to be aware of your limitations, right? You're not a doctor. But all of us have gone online and and done a search on, you know, a symptom or something like that.

And, and it's a lot better at that in the offering I got, I got a new one.

Yep. It's so good. Well and it's only gives us a lot of a lot of things that, you know, metrics that we can use to improve our health and those kinds of things. Right.

So all of these things are great things, but there is a dark side, that is also there. And so we just can't stick our head in the sand, turn a blind eye to the perils.

Even as we do want to really take advantage of the great opportunities and, you know, you know, I know in, in the school space for quite some time, there have been, teachers have been having to deal with new kinds, cheating. Right. Plagiarism. You know, just outsourcing your homework, basically. And, and what does that do to a child?

Well, they're they're getting the grade better than ever. And they're not learning anything, right? They're they're missing out on the actual learning. And so, you know, those are some of the ways that we see it, turning up in schools. But I think, you know, a lot of the things, I think the, the chat bots are one of the things I'm, I'm really concerned about, I mentioned earlier, you know, these are designed to create emotional dependance.

There's an article I read recently that said, you know, from a chat bot, you will get empathy, but you're not going to get help. And again, this is not an actual relationship. I think that we, you know,

everybody talks about the mental health crisis, and having someone to talk to is really important. I would just say to someone, not something.

Right. And a child is not able to distinguish, between what's on the other side of that. A lot of adults aren't eager. I do think that that's where it can get very dangerous, where the lines are blurred. A this is not a real human. And it having people who are, you know, not leaving the house and having relationships in that way, it's just bad for society and the population to me, to be frank to when you have that type of is perfect.

You did mention a lot of the positives. I, I'm just curious how you're using it now in a, in a positive way, like in your life, how it's changed over the last year because it's everywhere.

It is everywhere. I imagine there are ways I'm using it that I don't even realize that's depending on AI, right? I, I do have to give a shameless plug for, for, you know, you guys know because we are definitely using your product in our office.

Thank you. And it's a great cycle. It has. Well, you know, I know when we first, started exploring it, I was like, you know what? I want to know what my staff say about this. And they. I asked them to test drive, and they were like, this is amazing. It saves us hours and hours and hours of work.

And, you know, I was a math teacher, so I remember, you know, as, as calculators have kind of evolved, right? And I haven't seen the calculator or whatever the latest calculator they're using in high schools and that sort of thing. But I know when I went back, into teaching after, my kids all got school age, the calculators were a lot more sophisticated than when I had been in school.

And when I, when I'd been teaching, you know, before the internet had come in and all of that kind of stuff. So, you know, and I remember the arguments around even just using a calculator versus doing it on pen and paper. Right. Oh for sure. And, and so, you know,

even then, this has always been, kind of the yin and yang of, technology, right?

Is you want to make sure, again, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. So on the one hand, you know, you need kids to know how to multiply and divide and add, subtract. They need to be able to do those things manually, because if they don't know how to do those things manually, they don't know how to really, when they're using a calculator to do those things and they get a really stupid answer because they, they miss kids.

Something right here. Well, you know, if you know how to do those things manually because your brain understands the concepts and the skills, then when then you catch those mistakes, right? You're like, oh, that's way out of range. I must have hit the wrong key or something like that. If you don't know the underlying principles, then you don't catch those things, right?

Yeah, but if you do, then the calculator does all the not time consuming number crunching that allows you to go do much more complex problem solving. Right. And so I think that's, that's the the same idea with AI is that you need to understand the basic principles of how things work, how people work. Those, those kinds of things.

But when, when you and how critical thinking skills. Right. Does that sound right? Does that make sense? Is that logical? Just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true. And so, you know, you you need to know how to do your own research, when you need to. And, you know, you need to know how to ask good questions.

So those kinds of things will never go out of style. And they'll they'll never really be, something that you can actually outsource safely, I think, without losing your agency.

And I think that's kind of at the center of all of this. Is that, you know, we want to maintain what it means to be human. Oh, 100%.

That's kind of the philosophy I have with our company.

So it's that I was doing so many manual, time consuming tasks in my workflow, and if I can cut that down by hours, but really, it's just a bunch of clicks on a computer, I can spend more time doing that and having meaningful conversations and, you know, moving the needle, having, you know, opportunities in new sites and being able to travel and go and meet these people in person, I think is so awesome and getting people's time back.

And so we're using it a ton in different ways. And I'm always trying to think of how can I use AI to optimize things that I don't like doing? Like, how can I save myself hours, right? I just had a really fun event.

We had a hackathon, so we had all all the team come together. We've got 18 staff now.

It's insane. That's amazing. Congratulations by the crazy. Thank you. It's so crazy. But I love our team. And we had, you know, all the developers, everybody in person. We put them all into groups mixed with like the business guys and, and marketing team and all that with the coders. And we said, okay, come up with the most efficient, tool or technology that you develop that we can use in the business.

That's going to help save us a lot of time. There's so many things that time consuming. And one of the most innovative ones was actually one that James is team built. He just met, they built. So we get feature requests all the time from Laura. From everyone from the home, from everybody who uses the root of the end users.

Yes. And then that's how it helps us develop product. But we have, like, huge fights and debates about what's next to be built because we're like, no, I talked to this person and they really want this. So we've, developed, there's a little chat bot that you can, like, answer the question. You can send questions to and then talk to a person.

But James developed an AI that would aggregate all of the requests, put them into one them. And then the highest ranked feature was at the top. Like this has been requested by 20 different people. This has been requested by ten and say, hey, this is where you should start next. This is the most interesting thing about that was an amazing, new use of it.

Yeah. Like that's crazy. That's interesting. Well, and, you know, even I talked about, you know, I know my kids, use it a lot as well. And actually, I have one of my one of my kids, my son is in the tech industry. Yes. And he he. Because he just loves this kind of stuff. He actually has incorporated it into his apartment.

So he has like, he's built all of this, stuff using AI where, you know, he gets home and he's like, you know, initiate, welcome home protocol. And all of these things happen, you know, in his apartment, you know, the curtains do this, the lights do this, the air does this. And so, you know, I think there's tremendous opportunity and tremendous creativity right there is, the potential of all of this.

And I think we just have to pay attention to, making sure, though, that we're not doing our beta testing on kids. I couldn't agree with you more

there's such a polarization divide right now with different schools, right? We're in the Texas triangle. So we're in some of the, you know, high tech areas of Texas. If we're raising our kids here, they can stay here.

But there's a lot of places in rural Texas that they might not be learning about some of this technology and might be behind, you know. So I was curious what you think about incorporating, you know, teaching about AI so that, you know, they're not behind when they get to that graduate level, and there's somebody who's way ahead, who's been in Austin or Plano or lived in a more tech forward, area.

What what do you think is important that they learn about, you know, that's that's a great question. And again, is something that is not only always has been constantly evolving, but will continue to constantly I have all right.

And so I think that it's it's something that we just have to kind of keep our finger on the pulse of what's happening in technology and make sure that we include it in the curriculum in our schools.

You know, one of the the good things is that we we tell our schools, you need to study this. You need to teach this, this, this, and that's right. And so we've done a lot around, not just the college readiness, but also the, the, career readiness, military readiness, for, you know, success doesn't look like college for every kid.

Sure. The trades and I mean, kids can make a good living doing a lot of things and never go to college, and it's just not the right fit for everyone. In fact, I think colleges are going to have to really pay attention to what is happening because I think degrees in some ways become are becoming less central to a person's ability to do tasks.

And, you know, I think about, again, I mentioned my son that is is, super techie and lives out in the Bay area. He's been doing this for a long time now. But you know, when when he has switched jobs or anything like that, they don't they they kind of screen his resume, but they don't hire based on his resume.

They bring him in and he's a coder. So they bring him in and they say, here's a problem program, a solution code, a solution in this language. And he can either do that or he can't do that. And they don't care what his degree is in. I know, you know, I had talked to him at one point because he's in the Bay area.

I'm like, what do you think about doing like a master's at Stanford or something while you're out there in the air or something?

And he's like, why would I do that? My work experience is more valuable than any degree I could ever get, and doing the degree would take away from the work experience and cost money and cost money.

And so, you know, I think that is what the future is looking more and more like for our young people. They can go online and learn anything they want on word, and they may be able to learn it in a format that works better for them, is more workable for their schedule. I mean, this is one of the exciting things about where we are for, adult learners, you know, folks that are wanting to improve their, their adults, their families, they can't quit their job and start putting food on the table so that they can go get another degree or do something like that.

But but because of all of the online opportunities, they can learn new things as they continue to do what they're doing now but improve their situation, improve their earning power and that sort of thing. So I think those are those are a lot of the things that we have to think about from an education policy standpoint, in Texas.

And I think I think it's it's great. I mean, one of the most important things and, you know, I, I loved this is one of the things that I, I think was important that I took from homeschooling my kids, was teaching my kids that you can learn your whole lifelong and finding the things that you're really interested in, you can follow that right?

And you can, navigate and set your course for what you want to learn, what you want to know, what you want to be. So, you know, that's almost limitless now. It's really exciting. And I know I never got taught personal finance in school. I never got taught about business. Even my friends who have done had gone and had MBAs are saying, okay, you have more experience in this than I do because you've literally started a business and I had to listen to a really good podcast I was with, I can't remember name, but Tony Robbins, one of his business partners, and, he started multiple businesses and been very successful.

And it was a similar, situation to what you were saying with, with Tucker not wanting to go get his MBA or another degree when it's unnecessary and it's work experience. This man said his daughter wanted to be an interior designer, and they said, okay, well, you're going to go to college for four years and have no real world experience and have to go find a job, said, here's what I want to do.

I'm going to propose. I will pay for you fully for two years. But what you need to do is direct message on Instagram, your absolute favorite designer in the world, and say, I will work for you for free for two years. And he said, and I will do that, I will pay for your life, and you can live with me, and I will pay for everything for two years, and then I will start your own business.

And what would that do? That would be amazing. 20 years old, have work experience from the best in the world and would be cheaper than college. I thought, wow, what an innovative, interesting way to look at, you know, new opportunities now. So I think obviously there's there's doctors and lawyers and positions that you need to go and get a degree that are absolutely required.

But there's so much that could be self-taught or you could learn, you know, from from doing. Yeah. So it's exciting. Yeah.

You know, that that really is true. And I think that, you know, the world is, you know, the world is my oyster for the person that understands how to teach themselves and how to go out and find what they need to know.

Right. The self-directed learner. I guess maybe that's the that's the the term I was trying to, to find again, that self-directed learner. That was that was a that's a big theme for a lot of, folks at home school, that they're teaching their kids that. Right. And, I think that's important. That goes back to also some of those core principles about just learning how to be a self-governing person, right?

And making good decisions. You know, all of those all of those things are important. And it matters that parents are the ones that are kind of helping their kids navigate those, those pathways as they grow up.

So as a former educator and counselor and seeing all this new tech and what parents are dealing with now, what types of things would you recommend they do to keep kids, you know, able to share with them? And, and out of some of these dangerous situations,

you know, I've, I've thought a lot of about those kinds of things.

And I'm thinking about it, you know, as I watch my kids raise their little ones. Right. And you know, that my oldest grandchild is four and a half now, and I just got my sixth one. That's amazing. Congratulate. But they're all they're all little bitty. And, you know, I, I look at them and I will tell you, as a grandmother, the thing that makes me happiest when I watch my kids and my grandkids is that I'm, I look at my grandkids, they're happy.

And why are they happy? I think they're happy because they feel safe. They don't know that they couldn't be safe. That doesn't mean they don't fall off the bed and hurt themselves or, you know, fall off their bike and skin their knee or whatever. I mean, things happen or their their brother hits on what I mean, things happen, right?

But for the most part, they're operating out of safety and security and love. Right? Not all kids get that. And I realize that. So it's it's just a gift to be able to watch my, my babies, my little ones. And growing up in an environment like that. But even so, with I think my kids are doing a great job parenting.

But even with that, all of the best intentions there are going to be things that happen, that are less than desirable. And so you always have to be prepared for those things.

But I actually, I, I kind of made this little list for myself. If you, if you don't mind me looking at I love that. But, but, you know, one of the things I thought about is when one of the most likely ways for a kid to die and a minor to die and adolescent to die is in a car accident.

For a lot of different reasons. Right. But most of us, don't say my kid's not ever going to be behind the wheel of the car, right? Most of us do our very best to teach our kids to to drive. We teach them to be responsible. We teach them you don't drink and get behind the wheel of a car.

You don't get in a car with someone who's been drinking. You don't drive at two in the morning when the rest of the people that are on the road probably have been drinking. I mean, there are things we teach our kids so they can do this dangerous thing that also has a lot of upside for them in a safe way, in a responsible way.

Right. So I think to me that's an analogy for what we have to think about when we're teaching our kids about technology. Tremendous opportunity, tremendous upsides. But also some dark sides and things they've got to to think about. And we also have to teach them to think well about things that don't exist yet. Right. So so some of the things that, you know, I,

I think it's important for parents to remember is, number one, pay attention to your kids tech use qualitatively and quantitatively.

It is not healthy for your kid to be on their device all the time. You know, Laura, we didn't talk about this, but one of the the laws that just went into effect in Texas is no cell phones at schools. Right. And I and I have heard reports from, administrators and teachers that for the first time in years, when they walk in the cafeteria, they hear laughter, and kids are bring in board games to lunch.

Wow. And they're talking and they're, they're playing and they're they're learning each other's names, you know, things like that. They're building real relationships. They used to be sitting on their phones. You know, no one really was exactly sure how this would play out, you know, would there be like this mass rebellion or whatever? Because I have to have my phone, you know.

But but the reality is, is that we're getting back to a better, I think, a better social normal with our kids by getting these out of, replacing. They take the place of something. They're not just an add on, they're replacing real relationships. And so I think that's something parents really need to pay attention to their kids.

The, the types of things you're using, the parental consent, even if there is something that involves your kid that doesn't legally require parental consent, you want to you're the parent, right? You're the parent. So that would be one thing. Another thing that, you know, I think kind of started I remember it kind of starting when I was a parent of young kids myself.

But it's really easy to use tech as a babysitter. And one of the things we've kind of talked about is, I mean, you wouldn't hire a stranger to babysit your kid. You need to understand that that using tech to babysit your kid is not safe. You don't know what's going to come in. So. So don't use tech as a babysitter.

It could be a pedophile. Yeah. And that's that's literally true. And so as easy as it is to just hand on the device, you can do better, right? I mean, even playing music or something like that. Right. There's a lot of benefits to kids brains listening to good music and that sort of thing. And there's a lot of educational music.

I mean, there are other things you can do go outside and play. You know, there's a lot you can do. Other than using tech as a babysitter. And it's not it really is not a safe bet for a babysitter. Totally. Model. Good character. And, good decision making for your kids. Teach. You teach them that.

You teach them how to make good decisions. You teach them what is good and what is not good. And, you know, like I've heard it said, you know, character is more often caught than taught, so you do need to say it to your kids, but you need to model it. They can't. Right? They catch from you your life.

And it's such an opportunity, and it's one of the best ways you can influence your kids. It's a real legacy, you know, just the life you live is the best thing you can give your kids. Make it the best. I, I talked a lot about this, but, you know, really focus on having genuinely healthy relationships in your family and with your kids.

Learn how to say, I'm sorry, learn how to, learn how to have boundaries, learn how to have a healthy, you know, and how to have a healthy. Yes. You know, I, I remember a lady taught me a long time ago, lady that went to my church, that was a real role model for me as a mom.

But she said, you know, you're you get asked to do things all the time. And a lot of the moms that might be listening, or, or dads, have kids. But, you know, if you're the kind of person that likes to get things done, people will notice that and they'll ask you to do things. And I mean, when you ask a person that's good at getting things done to get things done right, and they're the busiest people, and a lot of times we can out of guilt, we just keep saying yes and yes and yes.

And I remember a dear lady who's had such a powerful impact on my life. She said, Angela, don't ever forget the every yes is a no. In every no is a yes. Because when you say yes to something, it you cannot change the fact that now you'll have to say no to other things, and it may be to your kids, or your husband or your close friends or your, you know, other things that really it should be your priority.

So when you say yes to say to something, say yes on purpose, not out of guilt because it's totally it's what you should do, right? And every time you say no to something, you're also saying yes to other things. So you don't you can't. It's not so easy. Like, oh, I, I said yes, and then I get rid of the guilt.

When you said yes, you said no to other things.

So don't be afraid to say no when it's the healthy thing to do. Right. That's great advice. I'm trying to do it more because you can't do everything. No, and especially as a mom, you have other responsibilities. So you do. You have a lot of things you have to do.

And I guess, you know, the the other thing and we talked about this too, but be a parent who your child can come to, you know, when they failed and they still know you love them. And even though you don't approve of the behavior and the decision or whatever you're going to, you're going to walk with them into the healthiest next step and that they can count on you for that.

So, you know, I think it is probably harder to parent today than it ever has been, but kids have always been in the crosshairs, as kind of the low hanging fruit for, people who want to exploit, you know, there have always been predators in the jungle. And, you know, as parents, though, we're the grownups.

So be the parent and love your kid, be their safe place where they can can have standards. They can do it, and they'll want to do it. You know, if you're modeling that for them and love them when they make mistakes. Yeah, it was amazing. Wise words of wisdom here. And, thank you so much for coming on the show and talking about all these things.

I know you're one of the the funnest people to sit down and talk to. If you're I always would see people come in, you know, from different companies and groups and they always would say, wow, she's so fun to talk to. And she knows so much about so many different subjects. And I think this was a really great peek into all the wisdom you have today.

So thank you. Thank you Laura. Well, you're you're a fun person to talk to eggs. And I love watching you operate in your element here and just wish you the best success. And, I think you're right where you're supposed to be. And it's fun to watch you just get better and better and better at being you.

You're so kind now. How can people keep up with everything that you're doing? I know you have a newsletter and some other things. Do you have any other shout outs? Yeah, they can follow. Follow me on social media or media. Angela Paxson talks, on my social media and, Angela Pax intercom is my website. People can go there and sign up for the newsletter and and everything, but I'd love to have people join us.

And, you know another thing I'm going to I'm working on right now is I'm actually working on a documentary podcast project myself. Cool. Aimed at parents and helping to equip and educate, parents so that they can raise their kids in this really difficult, environment that is often, you know, predatory for their children. And it's it's called the cost of innocence.

Okay. How big tech, big pharma and big others are targeting our kids for profit. So I know a lot of parents are becoming more and more aware of how many, forces there are that are looking at their kids, as just a, you know, a money machine and sure don't really care what happens to the kid. The kid is expendable.

It's just a way to make some money in the short term. And so, you know, again, parents are the ones who are invested in their children for the long run. And so I think it's really, really important that parents are engaged. And so I want to help educate, educate parents, encourage them, but equip them with practical tools so that they can make good decisions as parents to help their kids make good decisions as they grow up.

Amazing. And when and where can people find the cost? Well, they can actually go online and, you know, just do a search on Cost of Innocence. Angela Paxton but we're in the process right now with, production and, we're still doing interviews and that sort of thing, but it's going to be a great, podcast again, really hoping to, help parents have what they need, to raise their kids.

Awesome. Well, I can't wait to watch it. Thank you so much. Thank you.

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Bills and Business is your go-to podcast for conversations related to Texas legislation and business. Hosted by Laura Carr, Co-Founder of USLege—an AI-driven legislative tracking software—we bring you in-depth analysis on economic trends, impactful legislation, and key developments shaping Texas business.

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